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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 20:58

I just came to wonder what the opinion of the Dark City would be on this topic. WS5 on Wyches has long been debated and with the power-creep I came to think if it wouldn't be justified to give our models higher WS where it matters.

I think it would only respect the fluff, as citizens of the Commorragh have the superior physical capabilities and senses compared to Craftworlders due to the lack of pyshic powers.

Effectively, it would make units 25% stronger and considering our competition I don't think this is even such a big deal when looking at CE, Corsairs and other armies which have been released ever since Necrons.

Moreover, it would nicely fit the "glass cannon" theme of the faction. We used to be known as a high-damage faction, something which slowly decreased over the years and that would make us unique to some degree again.

A few models might indeed become too strong, but that is nothing that cannot be handled with a slight point increase.

I am thinking about this for Cults and Kabals, as I don't think this would be needed or appropriate for Coven. After all, they are very cluncky, cumbersome for DE standards in a very good spot to begin with (well, with the exception of Wracks and Haemonculi).

So, what do you think about this?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 21:11

I did try WS5 for Wyches in my homebrew codex but ended up reverting to WS4 as they were a bit OP. That was however a combination of increased WS and added abilities in combat so, in isolation, an increase in WS would be fine. I don't think it solves the Wyches problems though on its own.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 21:22

I think it certainly fits the fluff. Beyond that, it would depend on how they handled the rest of their abilities/stats.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:22

IMO wyches really need a way to deal reliable damage, we have many weapons that reroll hits, I'd rather see Rending on them.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:26

amishprn86 wrote:
IMO wyches really need a way to deal reliable damage, we have many weapons that reroll hits, I'd rather see Rending on them.

I agree. I think rending is fluffy for wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:46

Weapon skill 5 isn't making them significantly better I guess...

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:52

Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:58

lament.config wrote:
Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.

Do you think if our whole army was BS5 you'd see DE taking down major tournaments? I'm not saying they wouldn't just wondering.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 00:17

Kehmor wrote:
lament.config wrote:
Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.

Do  you think if our whole army was BS5 you'd see DE taking down major tournaments? I'm not saying they wouldn't just wondering.

I wouldn't necessarily say that, but it'd certainly go a long way towards justifying the cost of certain blaster and darklance units.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 00:24

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Kehmor wrote:
lament.config wrote:
Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.

Do  you think if our whole army was BS5 you'd see DE taking down major tournaments? I'm not saying they wouldn't just wondering.

I wouldn't necessarily say that, but it'd certainly go a long way towards justifying the cost of certain blaster and darklance units.

I actually wouldn't see this make DE that OP in a competitive sense - probably just about right - would make us really boring though as certain units which are already popular would just be must picks.

I do think it would make DE OP is casual games though when not facing cheese.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 05:22

Kehmor wrote:
lament.config wrote:
Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.

Do  you think if our whole army was BS5 you'd see DE taking down major tournaments? I'm not saying they wouldn't just wondering.

I'm not a mathhammer person though if someone else does the work I'd follow the breakdown. Weapon skill just isn't as valuable as ballistic skill in 40k. There's no hitting on 2s in CC.

I think ballistic skill 5 would be really strong. Though I don't know if it's enough to put us into full on assault territory. But, that said a venom hitting on 2s would be pretty strong.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 10:34

WS/BS 5 is not OP at all... I still wouldn't take them.

They need rending + a way to get them into CC before they are instantly obliterated by even the smallest of small arms fire. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 14:16

When starting this thread I actually had more our shooting in mind, but I see that Wyches are very close to the Dark City's black hearts xD

I don't want to stretch out the topic of Wyches even more, but I too think that they should get something that lets them deal reliably with armor. Kabalites are killers when facing high toughness, bad armor value models (aka MCs), it would only make sense to give Wyches something against units with good armor values.

Rending might indeed be a simple way to fix this, from what I heared Fantasy Dark Elves have a similar unit and it performs great. On that topic, I remember doing some mathhammer and WS5 + enemies rerolling passed armor saves came about even as Rending (but was drastically worse on AP2).


Apart from that, I'd love to see our Splinter and Darklight weapons hitting on 2+. Also, Blasters hitting on a 2+ would make a very sweet differrene as well. I'm still hoping that eventually Trueborn will receive Heat Lances and become a bit cheaper to give us a pure DE equivalent to Fire Dragons.

Sadly, I must agree that it really wouldn't change a lot in melee, although WS 5 on Reavers would be nice indeed. I think most melee units have a conceptual problem, which I think is most evident on Incubi who have great rules but have too many weaknesses.

I don't even say that WS/BS 5 makes us competitive again, but I think it would be the first step into the right direction. It would only make us better in the areas we are already good, or at least perform "okay", a redesign or reimagining is still needed but the more I think about it the more I'd love to see WS5 as a norm.

I could easily see it as an early Power from Pain rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 14:49

lament.config wrote:
Weapon skill 5 would be solid on wyches. I don't think they will up the ballistic skill ever though as hitting on 2s is just to good.

Rending would be nice but, genestealers have it and most people don't consider them very strong.

Genestealers are bad b.c they are 14pts with a 5+ save, no assault nades (the book has them just Genestealers cant buy the), no shooting and the upgrades are overpriced.
The Broodlord Upgrades are 10-30pts..... 30pts for Regen.


I feel sense Wyches are Melee breaded, they need to stay melee, Adding Redning IMO would be one of the easiest fixes right now, tho 4+ dodge vs Overwatch be nice too.

About BS5, I'd rather see Trueborns with BS5

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 15:39

I actually think WS5/BS5 across the entire army makes a ton of sense. As eldar who are without the burden of psychic power to control, they have thousands of years to focus on their own martial skill. I think it makes sense, and would actually make a significant difference in our armies. BS5 Ravagers? Yes please. BS 5 Raiders with dark lances would go a long way towards making them actually do SOMETHING, whereas they have a reputation for being unreliable with a lot of players simply due to only being a single shot with a 45% chance of doing nothing at all against AV10. BS5 would change that percentage to 31%.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 15:48

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I actually think WS5/BS5 across the entire army makes a ton of sense. As eldar who are without the burden of psychic power to control, they have thousands of years to focus on their own martial skill. I think it makes sense, and would actually make a significant difference in our armies. BS5 Ravagers? Yes please. BS 5 Raiders with dark lances would go a long way towards making them actually do SOMETHING, whereas they have a reputation for being unreliable with a lot of players simply due to only being a single shot with a 45% chance of doing nothing at all against AV10. BS5 would change that percentage to 31%.

After talking about having No Powers I can see it more likely now.

DE is really missing something with our Book, Having WS/BS 5 would make a large difference, but not in being OP rather in we have more viable options now.

A BS5 Ravager is nothing compare to what Eldar get.. I mean just look at Scatter Bikes :/ or All there TL etc.. etc..

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 15:55

Personally I think WS/BS4 is perfectly fine when you consider that this matches Space Marines who are genetically designed as elite warriors and undergo intensive training and extensive combat experience. In short, 4 is supposed to be an elite value.

What I do agree on however is that 4 is given out WAY too easily. Eldar Guardians should not be WS/BS4. IG Veterans should not be BS4. Necrons should not be WS4 (and probably not BS4 either but that's more debatable).

I have also mentioned on several occasions (and here I go again) that the WS To Hit chart is complete rubbish. BS10 gives you 2+rerollable to hit, ie 97%+ accuracy. WS10 gives you 67% accuracy (down to 50% against WS10). Why no 2+ to hit in melee? Why no 6 to hit in melee? A D6 system is limiting enough as it is, without removing 1, 2 and 6 from the possible results!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 17:09

Count Adhemar wrote:
Personally I think WS/BS4 is perfectly fine when you consider that this matches Space Marines who are genetically designed as elite warriors and undergo intensive training and extensive combat experience. In short, 4 is supposed to be an elite value.

What I do agree on however is that 4 is given out WAY too easily. Eldar Guardians should not be WS/BS4. IG Veterans should not be BS4. Necrons should not be WS4 (and probably not BS4 either but that's more debatable).

I have also mentioned on several occasions (and here I go again) that the WS To Hit chart is complete rubbish. BS10 gives you 2+rerollable to hit, ie 97%+ accuracy. WS10 gives you 67% accuracy (down to 50% against WS10). Why no 2+ to hit in melee?  Why no 6 to hit in melee? A D6 system is limiting enough as it is, without removing 1, 2 and 6 from the possible results!

I disagree with the first half, and agree with the second half.

Space marines are genetically altered humans, but they're STILL humans. There is no reason to believe that genetically altered humans(ie space marines) should be the equivalent to another alien race with a completely different biological makeup. It's entirely possible(and likely, given the fluff), that eldar and DE in particular would have better agility, hand-eye coordination, and dexterity than space marines, while being both weaker and more fragile. Even in game balance terms, we should bear in mind that there are a lot of things that make a unit ELITE. Space marines are still +1S and +1T compared to eldar and DE, while having 3+ armour instead of 5+.

But anyhow, I totally agree on the melee chart. I think it's silly to limit it as they have.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 17:10

If it were up to me, I'd get rid of BS and WS altogether. The 'to hit' tables are counter-intuitive and pointless! Instead, let's bring back modifiers. Let's say that any shot is a hit on a 4+, so it's fifty-fifty whether it's a hit or a miss. Every model gets a 'Shooting' stat in the form of '+X' or '-X', so space meringues, eldar, etc. get a +1 to their roll, while orks get a -1.

So far it's the same, but I lied! The Shooting stat is actually in the form of '+X/+Y'. The first number is how good you are at shooting, so you add it to your rolls when shooting, but the second number is how hard you are to shoot, and you subtract it from rolls when being shot at. It kinda bugs me that space meringues have the exact same two-out-of-three chance of hitting a tiny jetbike zig-zagging in the distance at 500 mph that they do of hitting a wall at arm's length.

I would be generous with the Dark Eldar with that second number. Wyches could be 'Shooting: +1/+2', for example, so space meringues shooting at wyches would be 4+ (base) -1 (space meringue 'to hit') +2 (wyches 'to not be hit'), which is 5+. Or even 6+, maybe, I dunno. It depends!

Of course, one of the designers of the space meringue codex would then introduce the 'Scruiuz Devicius', available to all meringue units for one point, which says, 'this unit may ignore any negative modifiers to their shooting rolls'. But this time, we wait until he has written it in his notes, but before he sneaks it into the rules, and we hit him on the side of the head with a large dead fish. SLAP!

'Are you completely stupid?' we ask, rhetorically. 'What's the point of designing rules if you're just going to put in an easy way to ignore them!'

'But - but... space meringues!'

SLAP! 'What was that?'

'Space...' SLAP! 'Mer...' SLAP! '...rings...' SLAP!

'Stop saying 'space meringues'! One more 'space' or 'meringue' out of you and I'll make you swallow this dead halibut!'

See? It's easy. They just need a firm hand.

We do the same to WS: we replace it with a 'Combat' +X/+Y stat. So, if you're a Succubus, you hit at +5, so even your rolls of 1 become 6s! You always hit! Except you're fighting another Succubus, and she gets hit at -5, so it cancels out and you hit, and are hit, by each other on 4+'ses, which sounds about right. And if you're fighting some kind of meringue character, well, if he gets in even one hit, you may be in trouble, but at least he'll need a good dice roll!

You could play around with these stats. For example, you could say that meringues get a +1 to their Shooting 'to hit' when using bolters and bolt pistols, but not when using melta guns because those are unwieldy, or whatever. Or you could say that power fists impose a -2 to your Combat 'to hit' because, honestly, I don't see them as a good weapon to do kung-fu fighting, and you usually only need one hit anyway.

What do you think? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Wed May 25 2016, 17:25

WTF is a space meringue? Haha Wink

I think such a system would be fine, but it is unlikely to happen since it would require a complete rebuild of the game and re-printing of every single codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu May 26 2016, 02:17

I think giving WS 5 to Wyches would be perfectly fine. It still doesn't solve a lot of other fundamental problems with an 'assault' unit that can't hold up to Overwatch fire, and on average causes only 1-2 unsaved wounds on a tactical squad of Space Marines.

It's not really the ability to hit or wound in close combat that's the problem, it's getting through armor and surviving to make it into combat in the first place as an effective unit. You can use them know only as a secondary assault unit to join assaults in progress (something they can be good at) but that's using two units to do the job of one. Maybe have Dodge work vs. shooting, and a fail reverts to armor save?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu May 26 2016, 02:49

Barking Agatha wrote:
If it were up to me, I'd get rid of BS and WS altogether. The 'to hit' tables are counter-intuitive and pointless! Instead, let's bring back modifiers. Let's say that any shot is a hit on a 4+, so it's fifty-fifty whether it's a hit or a miss. Every model gets a 'Shooting' stat in the form of '+X' or '-X', so space meringues, eldar, etc. get a +1 to their roll, while orks get a -1.

So far it's the same, but I lied! The Shooting stat is actually in the form of '+X/+Y'. The first number is how good you are at shooting, so you add it to your rolls when shooting, but the second number is how hard you are to shoot, and you subtract it from rolls when being shot at. It kinda bugs me that space meringues have the exact same two-out-of-three chance of hitting a tiny jetbike zig-zagging in the distance at 500 mph that they do of hitting a wall at arm's length.

I would be generous with the Dark Eldar with that second number. Wyches could be 'Shooting: +1/+2', for example, so space meringues shooting at wyches would be 4+ (base) -1 (space meringue 'to hit') +2 (wyches 'to not be hit'), which is 5+. Or even 6+, maybe, I dunno. It depends!

Of course, one of the designers of the space meringue codex would then introduce the 'Scruiuz Devicius', available to all meringue units for one point, which says, 'this unit may ignore any negative modifiers to their shooting rolls'. But this time, we wait until he has written it in his notes, but before he sneaks it into the rules, and we hit him on the side of the head with a large dead fish. SLAP!

'Are you completely stupid?' we ask, rhetorically. 'What's the point of designing rules if you're just going to put in an easy way to ignore them!'

'But - but... space meringues!'

SLAP! 'What was that?'

'Space...' SLAP! 'Mer...' SLAP! '...rings...' SLAP!

'Stop saying 'space meringues'! One more 'space' or 'meringue' out of you and I'll make you swallow this dead halibut!'

See? It's easy. They just need a firm hand.

We do the same to WS: we replace it with a 'Combat' +X/+Y stat. So, if you're a Succubus, you hit at +5, so even your rolls of 1 become 6s! You always hit! Except you're fighting another Succubus, and she gets hit at -5, so it cancels out and you hit, and are hit, by each other on 4+'ses, which sounds about right. And if you're fighting some kind of meringue character, well, if he gets in even one hit, you may be in trouble, but at least he'll need a good dice roll!

You could play around with these stats. For example, you could say that meringues get a +1 to their Shooting 'to hit' when using bolters and bolt pistols, but not when using melta guns because those are unwieldy, or whatever. Or you could say that power fists impose a -2 to your Combat 'to hit' because, honestly, I don't see them as a good weapon to do kung-fu fighting, and you usually only need one hit anyway.

What do you think? Smile

I love it. Smile

Actually I've previously thought about using Initiative as an opposed stat to BS, representing quicker opponents being harder to hit. Probably with size modifiers as well since a Wraithknight should really be easier to hit than a guardian.

Of course all these modifiers quickly lead us back to 2ed, but such is life.

Crazy idea for wyches: what if wyches got an extra attack for every armour save their opponents pass? Call it 'Press the attack' or something, representing the wyches creating opportunites for further strikes by unbalancing their opponents? Would help alleviate their struggles vs heavy troops without making them completely destroy light troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu May 26 2016, 04:30

I disagree completely with WS/BS5 on standard models - let alone army wide. Doing this would require a complete redo of the whole game.

Harlequins and Incubi are both WS 5 while every other aspect warrior and combat unit in the pointy ear arsenal is WS4. Bumping wyches (or the whole DE army) to 5 would require Harlequins, Incubi and all combat aspects to be upped by at least 1 - and then its a slippery slope as balance would require vanguard marines going up to 5 as well as assault terminators and that's just the first 2 examples.

I also disagree with rending on wyches - harlequins have always been the pinnacle of combat for the elder and they need to stay that way. That said, they also provide a good precedent for handing out better Wyche weapons as options - like pseudo rending (to avoid them destroying vehicles) and the like.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu May 26 2016, 10:35

Making the drugs useful by being able to choose one each turn might be an idea too:

+1 weapon skill
+1 Strength
+1 feel No Pain
+1 leadership
+1 toughness (debatable)

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu May 26 2016, 12:48

Massaen wrote:
I disagree completely with WS/BS5 on standard models - let alone army wide. Doing this would require a complete redo of the whole game.

Harlequins and Incubi are both WS 5 while every other aspect warrior and combat unit in the pointy ear arsenal is WS4. Bumping wyches (or the whole DE army) to 5 would require Harlequins, Incubi and all combat aspects to be upped by at least 1 - and then its a slippery slope as balance would require vanguard marines going up to 5 as well as assault terminators and that's just the first 2 examples.

I also disagree with rending on wyches - harlequins have always been the pinnacle of combat for the elder and they need to stay that way. That said, they also provide a good precedent for handing out better Wyche weapons as options - like pseudo rending (to avoid them destroying vehicles) and the like.

I can rather easily see this being dealt with with WS4/BS4 per default and power from pain giving our units +1 BS or +1 WS early on.

CptMetal wrote:
Making the drugs useful by being able to choose one each turn might be an idea too:

+1 weapon skill
+1 Strength
+1 feel No Pain
+1 leadership
+1 toughness (debatable)

As mentioned, I'd prefer WS being part of PfP. Choosable combat drugs would only result in 1 or 2 valid opions as it can be math-hammered-out which drugs are the best in direct comparison (fnp vs toughness or WS vs strength).
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