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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 06:13

So with the new faq taking away the best option of web waying fire dragons in a raider. What is the best option for anti tank, preferably being pure de. Everything just feels horrible when I write a list being over priced under performing or both.
Reapers over priced and one shot syndrome
Heat lance scourge require web way portal for maximum effectiveness.
Haywire scourge for some reason only manage 1-2 glances for me and are subsequently erased from play.
Lance ravagers can move a snails 6 inch pace and they only get one glance or pen if I'm lucky
Blaster born feel very very expensive for the weakest armor and rules. Fire dragons and blaster born are equal and points. Seems fair to trade armor leadership melta guns and battle focus for an extra 6" range of shoot.
Heat lance reavers with caltrops seem like an ok answer but then you have to use a real space raiders to get a good amount of squads and have to give up obsec.

Sooooo it seems like nothing is worth taking. What's everyone else's answer?
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 06:19

Webwaying...Fire Dragons...in a Raider... What?

A Raider isn't part of a unit. it IS a unit. Lol What madness is this?

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 06:40

He was referring to the idea to embark the fire dragons into a fast attack Raider prior to the game and deep Strike them. Must be very effective but it never appealed to me.

Why not just using two cad? Our troops are dirt cheap and so can your HQ be. And voila: you got enough fast attack for a crap load of Reavers.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 07:23

Fire Dragons and WWP still works but you lose the protection of a raider and will end up nicely clumped up ready for a blast/template attack.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 10:03

Xm0shcryptX wrote:
Reapers over priced and one shot syndrome
Plus the risk of 'no Forgeworld' restrictions. Not familiar with Reaper rules so can't really comment there.

Quote :
Heat lance scourge require web way portal for maximum effectiveness.
If you set up 5" from a vehicle the risk of mishap or being outside 9" is about 25-30%. A basic WWP carrier costs about the same as a whole unit, so taking multiple units is more point efficient, that also reduces the risk around reserve arrivals, which are similarly significant as deep strike issues. HL Scourges are a good option. Very likely to kill their target if within 9".

Quote :
Haywire scourge for some reason only manage 1-2 glances for me and are subsequently erased from play.
If there is no cover save in play HW Scourges should average just over 2 hull points. Not a reliable kill, but likely to do some damage.

Quote :
Lance ravagers can move a snails 6 inch pace and they only get one glance or pen if I'm lucky
Generally shouldn't need to move much, but output is about right against high AV targets. Decent option.

Quote :
Blaster born feel very very expensive for the weakest armor and rules.
Only advantage they have is deep strike from transport. Not as good as Scourges for deep strike or Ravagers if deployed normally, but still ok.

Quote :
Fire dragons and blaster born are equal and points. Seems fair to trade armor leadership melta guns and battle focus for an extra 6" range of shoot.
Fire Dragons can't deep strike though, except with a WWP from Dark Eldar. Obviously Fire Dragons are more dangerous than Trueborn if they get close to their target, and getting close is the problem they have to deal with.

Quote :
Heat lance reavers with caltrops seem like an ok answer but then you have to use a real space raiders to get a good amount of squads and have to give up obsec.
Cheap and useful HQ and Troops means it is practical to use multiple CADs, so no major issue there.

My view is Scourges, Ravagers and Trueborn are the best options DE have.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 10:33

Xm0shcryptX wrote:
Blaster born feel very very expensive for the weakest armor and rules. Fire dragons and blaster born are equal and points. Seems fair to trade armor leadership melta guns and battle focus for an extra 6" range of shoot.

Just wanted to pick up on this point. Comparing Blasterborn and Fire Dragons is never going to come out favourably for the Dark Kin. Fire Dragons are cheaper, have better armour, better movement, better weapons and melta bombs. Plus they can be BS5 with no tax, have +1 on the vehicle damage table for no apparent reason (giving them a 50/50 chance of an Explodes result on every pen) and can can re-roll failed Morale, Pinning and Fear tests. The only reason to pick Blasterborn over Fire Dragons is if you are fundamentally opposed to the use of Eldar allies.

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1++
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Tue May 24 2016, 21:42

For shooting you've pretty much covered the base in the OP but you haven't really hit on our assault options for AT.
- Reavers with Caltrops
- Grotesques
- Turn 5 everything with Furious Charge - of course, S4 won't remove that Drop Pod though

Yeah it's hard, but it can be done. Use your ranged options to take out key targets and use your assault stuff to do damage mid game.
I do think double CAD is a viable option, if you want the feel of RSR but not losing ObSec, but also maybe Ravagers perform better in 4's...

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Wed May 25 2016, 01:58

Without a Raider available for Fire Dragons, is it worth giving the Archon a 2++ for the ability to tank small arms fire? A template is still a problem though... I'd assume that the unit is probably gone by the end of the enemy turn anyway, but the 2++ may pay for itself and keep the enemy shooting on the Dragons.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Wed May 25 2016, 09:54

1++ wrote:
For shooting you've pretty much covered the base in the OP but you haven't really hit on our assault options for AT.
- Reavers with Caltrops
- Grotesques
- Turn 5 everything with Furious Charge - of course, S4 won't remove that Drop Pod though

Yeah it's hard, but it can be done. Use your ranged options to take out key targets and use your assault stuff to do damage mid game.
I do think double CAD is a viable option, if you want the feel of RSR but not losing ObSec, but also maybe Ravagers perform better in 4's...


This... this right here.

I play vs "parking lot" gladius often and its my grots and reavers that my opponents cry about. Laughing Cool
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Dodo_Night
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PostSubject: Re: Anti tank options   Sat May 28 2016, 14:06


Quantity. If you are going for haywire scourges, take more then one squad of them. Talos are not too shabby for wrecking light vehicles up close, especially if you give them all heat lances. 3 s10 smash attacks are not too bad against a heavier vehicle too. And yes, I like my blasterborn + haemonculi webway for hitting vehicles in the rear. No scatter is awesome ^^ can always have a dracon with blast pistol too for 5 shots. Ravagers can move 12 and fire two of its weapons at full ballistic skill and one snapshoting.

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