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 What's so bad about beastmasters?

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Mon May 23 2016, 22:02

But this wall ruling opens up to much more tactical play. One is running circles? Great! Let him. That is a tactic too. It rewards us with our skimmers and jet bikes.

Too bad our bikes don't have any heavy weapons...

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Mon May 23 2016, 22:50

CptMetal wrote:
It rewards us with our skimmers and jet bikes.

Sure, I suppose. But then, I guess one major difference between you and I is that even though I play DE, I'm not really on "Team Dark Eldar". I'm more of a "Team Balanced Gameplay" sort of guy. I have multiple armies and like the idea that interesting listbuilding and tactics be the primary things that propel people forward in performance, rather than OP rules or bad tournament practices.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 03:39

Walls vs Windows:

I interpreted the no moving through walls to mean solid walls, but no doors or windows. How have others interpreted it?

Beast matters could still be good with the ability to move through cover, but I suspect only in small squads to ensure they aren't targeted. A large squad is still far too vulnerable.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 05:24

I interpret the no moving through walls the same way, infantry can move through windows and doors just not solid walls.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 06:11

@BetrayTheWorld why do you assume I want my army to be OP? If I would, I wouldn't play dark Eldar, right?

Additionally, not being able to move through solid walls is just realistic. Being able to tear a wall down and seal it behind you in the heat of battle is just plain nuts.
But being forced to factor in the terrain and try to predict the enemy movement is tactic. If everything can go everywhere because walls and such don't matter, the game is missing a crucial part of tactics.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 06:27

CptMetal wrote:
Additionally, not being able to move through solid walls is just realistic. Being able to tear a wall down and seal it behind you in the heat of battle is just plain nuts.

When it comes to realism my problem with driving through walls is structural integrity, I'm pretty sure the tank crew didn't climb out and survey the building, usually already weakened do to damaged, to find the right place to drive through to prevent it from collapsing on them. And of course collapse would mean the wall/building would have changed effecting line of sight and ability to provide cover to different things.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 06:37

I agree. Maybe give the tank the ability to flatten a small building entirely and create rubble but it would overpower guard and probably make the game too complex. But the way the faq Rules adds a different layer of tactic to the game without adding an additional phase. Dog fight phase anyone?

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 16:52

@CptMetal My point, having to think about where you must go, having somewhere Impossible to go are part of the fun.

BUT back to Beastmasters.

I dont think they are strong enough at all, IDK if making them better or cheaper would be the right thing, but the unit is lacking to much to be played.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 17:14

Myrvn wrote:
Walls vs Windows:

I interpreted the no moving through walls to mean solid walls, but no doors or windows. How have others interpreted it?

It means no moving through walls, whether there is a window there or not, and If your model's base can't physically fit through a doorway, it can't move through it. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Does the size of the hole in the wall matter? Is a "portal" type window as seen in submarines sufficient? How about a large bullethole?

CptMetal wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld why do you assume I want my army to be OP? If I would, I wouldn't play dark Eldar, right?

I don't assume you want your army to be OP. You misunderstand me. What I DO think is that any time you hear or develop an idea, your assessment and analysis of said idea is first and foremost from the position of a Dark Eldar player. Your perceptions are from the view of a dark eldar player. I, playing multiple armies, view things through a bit different lens, is all. No offense intended. Wink

CptMetal wrote:
Additionally, not being able to move through solid walls is just realistic. Being able to tear a wall down and seal it behind you in the heat of battle is just plain nuts.

It's not realistic if you read GW's own explanation as to why it's allowed, which said that units of infantry are assumed to have the basic tactical gear necessary to perform things that modern day SWAT teams in the US are able to do. Explosives to blow open hatches, rope to climb, and other tactical equipment to shimmy through vents and such, or in the case of terminators, dreadnoughts and the like, to simply Kool-Aid man through the wall.

The extra time this required was represented through the difficult terrain movement roll. I'm not sure whether this explanation is still in the 7th edition book, or if the fluff behind it was removed. If the latter is the case, that would explain why "Noob FAQ writer number 26" likely didn't get the ruling the way GW has obviously intended it across multiple editions.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 17:26

[quote="BetrayTheWorld"]
Myrvn wrote:


CptMetal wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld why do you assume I want my army to be OP? If I would, I wouldn't play dark Eldar, right?

I don't assume you want your army to be OP. You misunderstand me. What I DO think is that any time you hear or develop an idea, your assessment and analysis of said idea is first and foremost from the position of a Dark Eldar player. Your perceptions are from the view of a dark eldar player. I, playing multiple armies, view things through a bit different lens, is all. No offense intended. Wink

How do you know he doesnt play multi armies?

I literally have 15k Nids, 18k DE, 10k SM, 5k SOB, 5k KdK, 2k Deamons and 2k Necrons

I choose to make DE my main army b.c I love everything about them, with that said I personally want Nids to be OP AF make people scared of them.

I want DE to be fast and super glass.

Just b.c someone likes something doesnt make it OP or thinking it is OP or that they want it to be that way for the purpose of being OP.

I personally also like that you cant go through walls. it gives the game more tactics.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 17:36

We should be talking about Beastmasters anyways.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 18:16

amishprn86 wrote:

How do you know he doesnt play multi armies?

Do you know that he does? If not, let's let big boys defend themselves. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 18:35

I've got several thousand points Chaos Space Marines too but they are not fun for me to play because I don't like the codex the missing flair and literally everyone I know has some kind of power Armour Armour too.

Back to beast masters:

Do you guys think a pure master unit as a stay in cover and shoot the enemy unit is viable? They are what... 2 points cheaper than Hellions and aren't effected by difficult terrain.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 19:10

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:

How do you know he doesnt play multi armies?

Do you know that he does? If not, let's let big boys defend themselves. Wink

How about you dont make assumptions? that was the point.



CptMetal wrote:
I've got several thousand points Chaos Space Marines too but they are not fun for me to play because I don't like the codex the missing flair and literally everyone I know has some kind of power Armour Armour too.

Back to beast masters:

Do you guys think a pure master unit as a stay in cover and shoot the enemy unit is viable? They are what... 2 points cheaper than Hellions and aren't effected by difficult terrain.

Nah, its 10pts for 2 poison shots, a unit of 6 makes 12 shots, A venom is 12 shots, and that can hold people, can be ObjSec, 5+ invul or a 4+ jink and shoots at 36" vs 18"

If you truly wanted to use Beastmasters you can take them as MSU with a power weapon, have a Clawfied or some Khymera's as body guards, have them hunt down hard to get units in Back line like 5 SM scouts waiting on an Objective. This way you arnt spending many points on the units and it feels like a waste to shoot them, also you can hide them better.


If you want to get CRAZY take 3-4 Detachments use all 6 FA slots on 1 Beastmaster! HAHAHA, 20 Independent Beastmasters,

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 19:12

amishprn86 wrote:




If you want to get CRAZY take 3-4 Detachments use all 6 FA slots on 1 Beastmaster! HAHAHA, 20 Independent Beastmasters,

I think kyhmera would work better for this
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 19:15

Kehmor wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:




If you want to get CRAZY take 3-4 Detachments use all 6 FA slots on 1 Beastmaster! HAHAHA, 20 Independent Beastmasters,

I think kyhmera would work better for this

Yeah most likely lol. But be cool to see tho XD

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 19:22

CptMetal wrote:

Do you guys think a pure master unit as a stay in cover and shoot the enemy unit is viable? They are what... 2 points cheaper than Hellions and aren't effected by difficult terrain.

Not really. I had this debate with someone on here when our codex first released. I was thinking the same thing you are back then. This is what I found out through analysis and debate: Yes, they're 2 points less than hellions for essentially the same shooting and movement. But hellions are widely considered bad, and hellions get the following for the 2 extra points per model:

1 - Combat Drugs
2 - +1 S melee attacks
3 - Hit and Run

The problem with beastmasters as a shooting platform that sticks to cover is that it occupies the same slot as a venom, while being easier to kill with T3. Point for point, beastmasters put out roughly the same number of shots as a venom(0.2 to 0.185), but at 18" instead of 36", and they die en masse to bolter fire or S3 weapons, whereas bolter fire has to get lucky to kill a venom, and anything S3 simply can't.

amishprn86 wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:

How do you know he doesnt play multi armies?

Do you know that he does? If not, let's let big boys defend themselves. Wink

How about you dont make assumptions? that was the point.

I'd say it's more of an educated guess than an assumption, seeing as how I've talked to this guy on the forums just about every day for the last 3 months.

That said, while we're making suggestions towards other people's personalities, how about you drop the attitude? It's becoming prosaic. When everything from you lately has been combative and aggressive, your bark begins to lose it's bite.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 19:34

@BetrayTheWorld Its not a assumption to you, its an educated guess, seeing how Ive read your posts for 3 months too.

Thi I will agree with you that Hellion are better, Drugs, +1S, and Hit and Run are WELL worth 2pts IMO.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 20:12

amishprn86 wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld Its not a assumption to you, its an educated guess, seeing how Ive read your posts for 3 months too.

What are you talking about? Did I say you assumed something? Try to keep it intelligible.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 20:17

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld Its not a assumption to you, its an educated guess, seeing how Ive read your posts for 3 months too.

What are you talking about? Did I say you assumed something? Try to keep it intelligible.

Dont worry about it.

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 20:51

Can we a) keep it civil and b) keep it on topic please - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:48

So what are people using for conversions or counts as models?

I've never actually played with beastpacks as the minis are finecast and the stats seem underwhelming even with the point reduction from the new codex.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:52

But the tactical worth of a beast master with a huge load of Khymera might be nice. It's a threat and shouldn't be many points.

The stats of Khymera are fine I guess. The leadership sucks but you could handle that.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Tue May 24 2016, 23:55

Yeah a unit of ten with a bare bones beast master is just barely over 100 points. One could use them as mobile cover and a first wave for an assualt heavy army. With the RR detachment they are spammable too.
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PostSubject: Re: What's so bad about beastmasters?   Wed May 25 2016, 00:03

Beastmasters are an easy conversion from hellions. Khymera can come from vampire counts dire wolves. Razor wings are tricky. I think someone makes razor bat swarms. Clawed fiends are really just about any suitable looking beasty.

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