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 What about... Wyches on Venom

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Ultimatejet
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PostSubject: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sat May 14 2016, 14:14

I was wondering about...

Are now (after the jink-nerf) 5men Wyches squads (with Hekatrix and Haywire) on Venom a "good" troop choice instead of Kabalites (always considering Venom)?

Considering that now troops are more than before a tax, at first sight Kabalites seems to me more useful because they're 2 points cheaper but... Wyches are now a little more effective than Kabalites because they have drugs jolly, invulnerable in meele and some use can be found in plasma and haywire granades. Kabalites (a shooty unit) can take haywire too but they will be often forced to snapshot and they practically do nothing

What do you think about it? Obviously I'm not thinking of VenomWychesSpam but of the just two mandatory troop choice for the foc.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sat May 14 2016, 14:16

No.
Wyches are never a good unit choice, because they're completely useless.
Even with a Hekatrix, they're not good enough in combat to actually be useful.
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KiloFiX
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sat May 14 2016, 15:34

What about Banshee Exarch and Witches?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sat May 14 2016, 15:55

@KiloFiX wrote:
What about Banshee Exarch and Witches?

They are good, but we can't take them in our transports and they aren't troops.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sat May 14 2016, 16:15

Warriors remain the go to for me on venoms, they are cheaper and with the flicker field I usually don't jink Venoms but rely on the Flicker field in most cases so the Kabalites are only marginally effected by this change for me.

@KiloFiX wrote:
What about Banshee Exarch and Witches?

You mean taking Banshees in one transport (which the first draft of the new faq states can't be placed in our transports for deployment but must be embarked on turn 1 on the board) in addition to wyches in a second transport and to assault with the Banshees first and use the wyches to assault second?

Banshee Exarchs are not Independent Characters. Maybe you meant an Autarch with Banshee Mask joining a unit of Wyches in a Raider? This has the same limitation as the Banshee when the new FAQ is finalized as you can't embark prior to deployment on the board, wyches also have to be 5 units strong so 5 wyches + autarch means six units and won't fit on a Venom so you have to use a raider or ally in a harlequin Starweaver which hold six for an open top transport and embark on them after deployment onto the board.
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sun May 15 2016, 17:40

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
Warriors remain the go to for me on venoms, they are cheaper and with the flicker field I usually don't jink Venoms but rely on the Flicker field in most cases so the Kabalites are only marginally effected by this change for me.

I do not usually jink with Venoms too, Kabalites are only "filler" that now can't shoot as good as before. Because of this I was thinking of Wyches.

Anyway after FAQs become legal I'll try out this configuration.
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sun May 15 2016, 18:47

I was thinking about using witches with agoniser against certain marine armies. I thought about Haywire witches first but I think Haywire Kabalite Warriors would be better.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sun May 15 2016, 19:38

@Ultimatejet wrote:
@CurstAlchemist wrote:
Warriors remain the go to for me on venoms, they are cheaper and with the flicker field I usually don't jink Venoms but rely on the Flicker field in most cases so the Kabalites are only marginally effected by this change for me.

I do not usually jink with Venoms too, Kabalites are only "filler" that now can't shoot as good as before. Because of this I was thinking of Wyches.

Anyway after FAQs become legal I'll try out this configuration.

Well truthfully the two units have different roles so it could very well turn out that they come out equal to one another when used properly.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sun May 15 2016, 21:28

I don't think wyches really work well with venoms. I usually try and keep my venoms at range if possible and that's not where wyches need to be. I think a full squad of ten with an agonizer in the squad could be effect at killing the troops of most factions but, the high points cost of the squad and it's lack of ability to deal with any of the stronger assualt squads in the game will continue to keep my wyches on the self or the spure.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Sun May 15 2016, 23:58

I'm going to repeat a proposition I made that wyches are not really complimented by the venom but instead treat them as a defensive upgrade to the vehicle. Protecting against the first unit to get too close. If that is early turn drop pods, great you didn't move your venom forward. If that's late game. Great wyches get better as the game goes on. If you consider them a 50 point assault buffer for your venom that also fulfills mandatory troop choices, they aren't so bad. Add a hekatrix w/haywire and they can wittle down those same pods that you otherwise wouldn't be able to spare shots for, denying linebreaker or taking the obsec off an objective. They can also provide a speed bump with their invuln saves or absorb some overwatch or provide "assault grenades" for some of your more valuable units. They are certainly more of a utility unit then anything else and I think their usefulness is very meta and even more player dependent

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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Mon May 16 2016, 10:52

Against drop pods they might actually be useful. Last game, the enemy put two pods in my deployment zone on top of the objectives. The Haywire would've been more useful removing those than the Blaster.

But I think Haywire and agoniser together would be too expensive. Sure, you can fulfill two different roles but the point costs?
155 points would be a bit much, wouldn't it?
Who wants to try those the next game and tell us about it afterwards?

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Ultimatejet
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Mon May 16 2016, 11:06

Agoniser it's too expansive for a 6+ troop embarked on a 10-10-10 trasport 2HP...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Mon May 16 2016, 14:10

I tried the FAQ's out, my local is doing a test run of them for a league before we make full judgement.

Honestly the Jinking didnt effect my games at all so far, I just didnt take Blasterborns and used the points in other places, Reavers, Razorwing etc... and the out come so far has been the same for me.

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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 11:37

I've also considered 3 men-Incubi-squads on Venom. Any thoughts?
It's 125 points per Venom
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 12:52

3-man Incubi squads are maybe a little too small to be useful. I like to full the fullw ay and take 5-man squads.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 13:52

I personally never cared for Incubi in 6th-7th edition.

Tho if I was to run them I would run them 5man, 3 are to little to do much, with overwatch and getting there then surviving after you swing you most likely will need the extra 2 bodies.

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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 14:21

As a drop pod counter, Incubi are actually really solid. I've parked a venom with a shadowfield archon and 3 Dinkubi in my deployment zone and found they are a seriously viable counter-init 5 and AP2. Its a good thing!

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Ultimatejet
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 14:52

Of course I too play Incubi in 5mensquads on Venom or Raider with Archon but I was considering them as cheap unit for the Venom instead of wyches or kabalite venom spam.
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 17:01

I think I'll have to use Incubbi for my next match against Marines. Those damn drop pods in my deployment zone!

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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 17:02

@Ultimatejet wrote:
I've also considered 3 men-Incubi-squads on Venom. Any thoughts?
It's 125 points per Venom

I think Venoms are the best transport for Incubi if you want to keep the cost low (unless you really want to get those Aethersails). Too many Incubi only result in too much over-kill anyway, which lets them exposed. I think 4 is a good number for Incubi, but I guess 3 is okay as well if you don't plan on taking on dedicated melee infantry.

However, in any case I'd take the Klaivex. You get a lot of value for 10 points, even more so if you play play them in small numbers (rampage).
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Fri May 20 2016, 17:38

I'll try some combination like 2 Venom of Wyches with Haywire and 2 Venom with 3 Man Incubi squad with Klaivex next match. Let's see
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PostSubject: Re: What about... Wyches on Venom   Wed Jun 01 2016, 20:53

@Ultimatejet wrote:
I'll try some combination like 2 Venom of Wyches with Haywire and 2 Venom with 3 Man Incubi squad with Klaivex next match. Let's see

Hey man,

Just wondering if you had a chance to field test the above yet?

Especially of interest is if you thought you had enough ob-sec? Assuming the 2 units of Wyches & their venoms were your only troops?

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