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 Placement of models when disembarking a Raider

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Abraxas
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PostSubject: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sat May 14 2016, 04:13

I have a question regarding model placement when disembarking from a transport - specifically, when a unit is disembarking from a Raider.

Per the normal rules, when a unit disembarks, you would place the models in base contact with one of the vehicle's Access Points (including its flying base, if it has one). Since Open-Topped vehicles do not have specific Access Points and all of the vehicle is considered an Access Point, how do I place the models in 'base contact' with a model that is suspended on a flying base, such as a Raider? Do I place them around the clear circular base? Or do I strictly have to place the bases in contact with the hull of the Raider?

I realize this question may seem a bit pedantic, but it can make a difference in the total distance I move the models. If they all disembark near the prow, I'm gaining about an inch before they make their movement. If they remain clustered around the flying base, they lose a bit of distance on their movement after disembarking.

Can anyone clarify or shed some light on this? Am I missing something important?
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sat May 14 2016, 09:27

Rulebook , Transport
"Placing Disembarked Models. [...] , but it must end its move wholly wihtin 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from[...]"

If you Prow counts as part of the raider, (thus the enemy can use it for LoS), then your units can disembark 6" infront the prow
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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sat May 14 2016, 10:48

From the Open Topped vehicle section;

Quote :
Open-topped vehicles do not have specific Access Points. Instead, all of the vehicle is considered to be an Access Point (regardless of any base they may have).

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Abraxas
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sat May 14 2016, 12:49

My question is regarding the initial placement though (prior to moving models within 6" of the Access Point). I understand the entire hull of the vehicle is an Access Point, but it is not possible to place models in base contact with the hull (unless we imagine they are floating in space). If the flying base is considered part of the vehicle for these purposes, logically you could assume that you place models in base contact with the flying base, right? And then you proceed to move within 6", shoot, declare a charge, and so on. If you place models near the prow, they aren't really in base contact with the hull.

In other words, I just find the wording ambiguous. If it simply said "if it not possible to place models in base contact (such as in the case of an open-topped skimmer) place them as close to the vehicle's hull as possible, then move within 6" of the hull when moving" that would be clearer. Is that correct?
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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sat May 14 2016, 13:44

How long have you been playing 40k for, just out of curiosity...

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sun May 15 2016, 02:39

You can remove the base and lower the vehicle to their level in order to ensure they "would" be in contact with the hull.

But to those questioning his question...this is actually an important point. Technically, all models have to be placed in this manner before moving during an emergency disembark, so if you block an access point or two, it's possible that only 1 or 2 models from an enemy unit can get out of their transport and be placed in base contact with an access point.

Basically what I'm saying is: A lot of people skip the step of having to place all models in base contact before moving, but sometimes this is an important step that shouldn't be so quickly handwaved off.

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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sun May 15 2016, 04:06

No one is questioning the question, infact if anything, people are offering help.

Here's another "approval" from the Skimmers section:
Quote :
The base of a Skimmer is effectively ignored, except for when the Skimmer is being charged or Rammed, in which case, models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sun May 15 2016, 07:11

you two are talking about two different things.

OP is correct that technically you have to place the models in contact.  However, with a skimmer (like people are saying) it can almost always be ignored, but, betray is reminding OP that although skimmers act a certain way, it is worth understanding that this mechanic can have an effect on models during a game.

aka its not about the bases... jocolor

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Abraxas
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sun May 15 2016, 21:31

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
You can remove the base and lower the vehicle to their level in order to ensure they "would" be in contact with the hull.

I think that's how I'm going to be doing it, and I doubt anybody is even going to give it a second thought. This was really more of a 'rules as written' question meant to be more theoretical in nature rather than a pragmatic consideration.

Quote :
But to those questioning his question...this is actually an important point. Technically, all models have to be placed in this manner before moving during an emergency disembark, so if you block an access point or two, it's possible that only 1 or 2 models from an enemy unit can get out of their transport and be placed in base contact with an access point.

This is an interesting tactical application of the disembarkation rules I hadn't thought of.

Quote :
Basically what I'm saying is: A lot of people skip the step of having to place all models in base contact before moving, but sometimes this is an important step that shouldn't be so quickly handwaved off.

I've been doing a thorough re-reading of the rules since I haven't had much experience with the '7th' edition ruleset, and I thought it was an interesting point of discussion. In practical terms, I'm going to be placing disembarking models near the prow, so they 'touch' the edges from a bird's-eye view - essentially achieving the same result as removing the Raider from its base without actually having to physically do that. It still won't help my Wyches be the close combat unit they should be, but that's a topic for another discussion!
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Sun May 15 2016, 22:11

Yeah, I've used these rules to kill 7/10's of a squad on numerous occasions. It's mind-boggling how many people seem to breeze past this most basic rule without giving it a second thought. If they can't be placed in base contact with the hull prior to moving during an emergency disembark, they die.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Mon May 16 2016, 00:01

Page number? I'll need to dog ear that because I know my opponents will not be happy.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Mon May 16 2016, 00:27

Page 81, Emergency Disembarking.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Mon May 16 2016, 00:45

Not just the hull, but 1" from enemy models.

Need to deny board space?

Call your local Reavers!  =)

Someone made a great guide to using reavers as both cover and access point blockers. Ill try and find it.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Mon May 16 2016, 03:28

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11454-dark-eldar-guides

Pragmatic Realspace Raider has guides to blocking with Raiders AND with Reavers.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Placement of models when disembarking a Raider   Mon May 16 2016, 04:25

@The Red King wrote:
Page number? I'll need to dog ear that because I know my opponents will not be happy.

Yeah, this one usually requires that they look it up in the book. That's why I said it's mind-boggling how many people don't know it. Every time I use it, they have to look in the book, like, "Really?!" Very Happy

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