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 Razorwing loadouts, revisited

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 08:35

The FAQ has brought the Razorwing the ability to finally fire its missiles at other fliers; Death from the Skies has brought the chance to tail enemy fliers and shoot their little tailpipes off. With this in mind is it time to revisit our favorite loadouts?

To get the ball rolling, I took a leaf out of @Mushkilla's book and wrote a program to run some simulations of differently armed Razors against different target profiles. After 10,000 iterations of each I felt I had enough data to get an idea of the efficacy of different builds. Here's the data on shooting down an enemy flyer:



Note that I approximated the chance of a missile hitting as 2/3; if anything I think this undersells the chance of a large blast hitting a large flyer-shaped target!

Some points of interest:
- Being able to fire missiles makes a big difference to the chance of knocking a flyer out.
- The gap between the stronger options (dark lances, shatterfield missiles) increases as the enemy armour increases. So does the points. There's an efficiency calculation crying out to be made!
- Dissies are quite capable against AV 10, but if you're building for all comers AA they aren't going to cut it for you.
- Anything with AV > 10, or more than 2 Hull Points, is probably going to live through your first salvo. Sad
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 17:42

I think it would be important to note that currently the draft FAQ states that blast weapons can target flyers and FMC's, and there is minor confusion over whether or not they can Hit what they've targeted.

Some of the discussion can be seen on the Facebook post found here

https://facebook.com/1575682476085719/photos/pb.1575682476085719.-2207520000.1462984466./1610526835934616

That being said I think if the FAQ turns out that blasts do work this way I think this is a great chart to have! Thanks

Also to throw my thoughts into the razorwing discussion: I think I'll keep mine with monosythe. Mostly because I'd like to keep the points down. And your statistics show just a minor drop in effectiveness.

Also I'd say to pick your battles. Try to reject a dogfight vs the new imperial flyer and possibly the eldar fighter plane. I think the razorwing should just about win vs anything else.
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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 19:43

I'd really like to see a comparison between having razorwings in the air in formations versus Ravagers on the ground with the new jink changes.

I'm wanting to embrace the new death from the skies release, however, at the same time I want some math-hammer before I drop the cash for four more fliers~

Is there a way to use that program to see the effectiveness between a Ravager and a flier, both on their ability to damage and their ability to survive being hit?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 20:48

Yes I cant wait till the FAQ is more clear as a Flier blast can target and hit or just target.

IMO any flier should be able to hit any other flier with any weapon, this game is based in the future, with insane technology I mean they have Jet bikes, why cant a flier hit another with a missile that blasts -.-

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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 20:59

Honestly, I'm not really sure why everyone is so hell-bent on that being an option...

I mean, I can understand that it's an extra strength six shot....but unless the target is AV 10, the chances of the missile damaging them is small.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 21:31

@Korazell wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure why everyone is so hell-bent on that being an option...

I mean, I can understand that it's an extra strength six shot....but unless the target is AV 10, the chances of the missile damaging them is small.

B.c we also have S7 missiles and St6 but AP2, but its Options we never had, it makes the vehicle more viable and more worth bringing.

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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 21:37

Fair enough. That makes sense.

Being able to one round other fighters would be useful.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 23:36

btfdeech wrote:
I think it would be important to note that currently the draft FAQ states that blast weapons can target flyers and FMC's, and there is minor confusion over whether or not they can Hit what they've targeted.

I can understand the idea that there is a strict RAW difference between targeting and hitting but does anyone seriously think that GW was considering that when they wrote the FAQ?

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire special rule?
A: Yes.

Anyone arguing that this means you still can't hit or wound them with blast/template weapons really needs to stop grasping at straws and just accept the FAQ answer at face value.

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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Wed May 11 2016, 23:37

I'm with you, honestly, if they can hit, they can damage, that's the direct effect of being hit.


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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Thu May 12 2016, 02:01

Did you also see the answer above it?
Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.
Of course it doesn't specifically say flyers, but that's where the confusion lies.

I don't think it's worth fighting over. I too think it would make perfect sense if the blasts hit what they targeted, but right now we need to post on the Facebook page that we want GW to clear it up before the draft becomes hard copy.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Thu May 12 2016, 06:25

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Korazell wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure why everyone is so hell-bent on that being an option...

I mean, I can understand that it's an extra strength six shot....but unless the target is AV 10, the chances of the missile damaging them is small.

B.c we also have S7 missiles and St6 but AP2, but its Options we never had, it makes the vehicle more viable and more worth bringing.

Not only does it give a Razor with lances more shots than the average enemy has hull points (always useful!), if gives the Razorwing Jetfighter a chance to actually live up to its name!


@Korazell wrote:
I'd really like to see a comparison between having razorwings in the air in formations versus Ravagers on the ground with the new jink changes.

I'm wanting to embrace the new death from the skies release, however, at the same time I want some math-hammer before I drop the cash for four more fliers~

Is there a way to use that program to see the effectiveness between a Ravager and a flier, both on their ability to damage and their ability to survive being hit?

I assume you're thinking of effectiveness vs skimmers or tanks here? Not sure that I can be bothered with the full gamut of shooter on target choices, but if there are a couple of specific comparisons you are interested in I might be able to knock something up for you.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Thu May 12 2016, 07:20

Hey! Thanks for numbers!

Can you calculate for Formation Razorwing?
+1 BS, Tank Hunter.

Also is there Jink in equasion? Can you make additional picture with after jink numbers?

So far we see naturally understood points - if you want to take out marine AV12 FLyers you have to take Lances.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Fri May 13 2016, 11:09

I think the other great new addition is going to be the reserve manipulation for razorwings. I already liked them over ravagers, but the fact that they can help me null deploy with more security while also damaging many enemy reserve rolls is great. I'll probably keep mine cheap with the dissies and monoscythes though just because the flyers I do fight are usually more of the flyrant or daemon prince variety than armor values.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing loadouts, revisited   Fri May 13 2016, 11:19

IMO with the new DftS rules (not dog fights, just the require rules) Our Razorwing IMO is in a MUCH better place.

With the Attack formations you have options now, tho I personally will always (unless some updates come out) be taking Shatterfield Missiles.

2 reasons, it gives me options, 1 option to hit low AV vehicles (with the Agility so we can turn 2 times should be easier to hit rear or side) and AI with S7/Shred, I might not have AP, but I will make sure I get 10 wounds on everytime haha!.

With the Razorwing being a Fighter, the StormRaven/Talon, SW and Necrons Fliers NOT being a Fighter we stand some chances now, tho Bolt fire will still hurt use.

Honestly if I was to play hyper competitive I would just take Eldar, there Flier is the best in game now.

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