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Ultimatejet
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 09:44

Out of Grotesquerie, imo the scissorhand is a good choice only if you don't equip the IC with Haywire. Anyway the Agoniser is expansive and Grotesque has S5 which is not that bad even with MC e GMC
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 10:10

I've found that in a shooting heavy army Incubi in a Venom in the backfield have been really useful. The Venom can fire away and then the Incubi can assault small or reduced units that make it into my deployment zone. I do play in an MEQ heavy environment and both my Eldar opponents are very fond of Scorpions.

I don't play against Necrons and it seems like their value would completely drop off there.

I disagree with the sentiment of Wyches being cheaper. I remember in the olden days when they were Elites and performed pretty well. I think they've been left behind the power curve in a pretty serious way and they need special rules to make them gladiatorial badasses. And of course Grenades.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 10:36

@Rhameil wrote:
I disagree with the sentiment of Wyches being cheaper. I remember in the olden days when they were Elites and performed pretty well. I think they've been left behind the power curve in a pretty serious way and they need special rules to make them gladiatorial badasses. And of course Grenades.

There seem to be a few people lately commenting about Wyches and grenades. Wyches have Plasma Grenades, which are assault grenades. This is one of the precious few areas in which they are not totally gimped!

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 10:56

Fair enough. I haven't used them in so long haha
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 11:10

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Rhameil wrote:
I disagree with the sentiment of Wyches being cheaper. I remember in the olden days when they were Elites and performed pretty well. I think they've been left behind the power curve in a pretty serious way and they need special rules to make them gladiatorial badasses. And of course Grenades.

There seem to be a few people lately commenting about Wyches and grenades. Wyches have Plasma Grenades, which are assault grenades. This is one of the precious few areas in which they are not totally gimped!

My biggest problem with Wyches are S3, T3 on a dedicated melee unit for 10pts, yes they have drugs (to random to calc them tho). IMO they NEED to be upgraded with an Agoniser if they want to kill anything.

A Khymera is same cost with 5++ S/T of 4, I6 and 3 attacks. Yeah you have no upgrades or Grenades, but you also now a beast too, but 3A at S4 compare to 2A at S3.

If Razorflails or Hydra Gauntlets had at least Rending they would be better, but AP5 is a no go.

Also WHY are all 3 of the Wyches weapons basically the same.

HG: Reroll To-Wound
RF: Reroll To-Hits
I/S: Reroll 1's To-Hit and To-Wound

So... its all basically the same in the end.

EDIT: for grammar (english is hard for me)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 11:19

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Rhameil wrote:
I disagree with the sentiment of Wyches being cheaper. I remember in the olden days when they were Elites and performed pretty well. I think they've been left behind the power curve in a pretty serious way and they need special rules to make them gladiatorial badasses. And of course Grenades.

There seem to be a few people lately commenting about Wyches and grenades. Wyches have Plasma Grenades, which are assault grenades. This is one of the precious few areas in which they are not totally gimped!

My biggest problem with Wyches are S3, T3 on a dedicated melee unit for 10pts, yes they have drugs (to random to calc them tho). IMO they NEED to be upgraded with an Agoniser if they want to kill anything.

A Khymera is same cost with 5++ S/T of 4, I6 and 3 attacks. Yeah you have no upgrades or Grenades, but you also now a beast too, but 3A at S4 compare to 2A at S3.

If Razorflails or Hydra Gauntlets had at least Rending they would be better, but AP5 is a no go.

Also WHY are all 3 of the Wyches weapons basically the same.

HG: Reroll To-Wound
RF: Reroll To-Hits
I/S: Reroll 1's To-Hit and To-Wound

So... its all basically the same in the end.

EDIT: for grammar (english is hard for me)

I agree completely which is why I radically altered Wyches in my homebrew codex so that they actually pack a punch in assault and the Wych Weapons actually do something interesting. Now I just need to kidnap the children of the GW CEO and 'persuade' him to let me write the new codex (joke! in case MI5, CIA, KGB are listening in).

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 11:28

If I redid wyches it would be

Razor Flails become Rending for 5pts
Impale/Shardnet: Re-roll to-hits of 1, Precision strike

Wyches
8pts (all same stats)
Dodge works against Overwatch
1 Wych weapon per 5
Hekatrix stays the same with added, may also take Wych weapon

Bloodbrides
12pts (all same stats)
May add Wych weapons to any Bloodbride
Syren same of Hekatrix

They Idea of Bloodbrides ot me are like marines gets special elites/command units etc.. etc.. that can have all special weapons, why cant we?

I also feel we need a Wych HQ that lets use benefit more so from CC and Drugs via a WL trait.
Something like, Roll 2D6 you choose, you may reroll dbls

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 12:50

With the nerf of Kabalite squads on Venom (and Raider) maybe 5man-wyches squads with haywire can be a possible troop choice now
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 12:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
If I redid wyches it would be

Razor Flails become Rending for 5pts
Impale/Shardnet: Re-roll to-hits of 1, Precision strike

Wyches
8pts (all same stats)
Dodge works against Overwatch
1 Wych weapon per 5
Hekatrix stays the same with added, may also take Wych weapon

Bloodbrides
12pts (all same stats)
May add Wych weapons to any Bloodbride
Syren same of Hekatrix

They Idea of Bloodbrides ot me are like marines gets special elites/command units etc.. etc.. that can have all special weapons, why cant we?

I also feel we need a Wych HQ that lets use benefit more so from CC and Drugs via a WL trait.
Something like, Roll 2D6 you choose, you may reroll dbls

Not too far from what I did with them. Thread here and the googledoc is here

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 14:19


I've always been a fan of the Lharmaen and Sslyth combo, as they solve each others weakness (toughness of the Lharmaen and leadership of the Sslyth), and he combines unit still beats out Grots (I don't know how this would fair if the Grots were given an Aberration with an Agoniser).

Almost the only weakness of Grots is that you have to add a character to them to sure up their leadership, which makes the combined unit cost a lot, and goes away from the multiple cheap units feel I want to go for (ie. no units over 200 points), however Grots are still great.

I think the Math-hammer here is a great start, but as others have said it can't be used in a vacuum, and other factors have to considered, eg. the wyches assault grenades (ok it doesn't stop them being awful), which units have fleet, their speed outside a transport which makes other units a valid alternative. In my pure Dark Eldar list I even use a unit of 5 Clawed Fiends with a Beastmaster - Don't Laugh !!

Interestingly what made me have a closer look at our assault units a few years ago, was that I wanted more anti tank. When you look at how many hull points any of our top close combat units can do to av10 rear armour (ie. the vast majority of non-walker vehicles), they can be a nice to supplement our traditional ravagers, scourges & trueborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 15:41

Take your grots from the Covens, and the leadership problem becomes a non issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 19:13

well yes they get fearless from the Coven, but if you are not playing in a Formation, you need to take the Detachment. hq as tax
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 19:53

Which only matters if you are trying to min-max and not take a traditional HQ. Grotesques are an excellent unit to put an HQ in.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 20:51

So I have done the calculations for the 4 units requested. To my absolute surprise, all the scenarios actually improved the units damage efficiency! Please note that these calculations are for MEQ and that against units with 2+ armour or an invulnerable save these increases in efficiency may not be present.

Without further preamble, here are the results:

3 man Reaver squad with Caltrops:
Increased from 0.028 to 0.035 (25% increase in damage efficiency)

3 man Grot squad with agonizer aberration:
Increased from 0.030 to 0.040 (33% increase in damage efficiency)

5 man Incubi with Klaivex:
Increased from 0.050 to 0.054 (8% increase, not the previously mentioned 58%)

5 man Wych squad with Hekatrix with agonizer
Increases from 0.017 to 0.019

For the Grots/Wyches, the addition of AP 3 really helps their damage output (vs MEQ anyway). Rampage with the Incubi is just amazing, and I imagine this increase would be seen vs anything (although a 50% increase of basically 0 damage ouput against wraith with their 3++ will still be basically 0). Caltops will also be great vs basically everything.

Thoughts?

Edit: Corrected Incubi attacks. Previously thought Klaivex gave the whole squad Rampage, but only he gets it. The increase in damage efficiency is negligible.


Last edited by fisheyes on Sun May 15 2016, 02:52; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 21:51

This is actually making me have another look at incubi - if only they had assault grenades... either way - vs MEQ, assuming the incubi can actually charge and strike at initiative they should pay for themselves on the first charge. Could be worth keeping a small unit as a deterrent behind los blocking terrain. If only they had grenades....
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Fri May 13 2016, 23:01

@fisheyes wrote:

Without further preamble, here are the results:

3 man Reaver squad with Caltrops:
Increased from 0.028 to 0.035 (25% increase in damage efficiency)

3 man Grot squad with agonizer aberration:
Increased from 0.030 to 0.040 (33% increase in damage efficiency)

5 man Incubi with Klaivex:
Increased from 0.050 to 0.079 (58% increase!!!!)

5 man Wych squad with Hekatrix with agonizer
Increases from 0.017 to 0.019

Ok, so I just checked some of your math, and I'm not sure where you originally went wrong, but I'm pretty sure the math shown on your first post isn't correct, at least for the Incubi and Grots.

The grots without agonizer vs MEQ should be 0.025.
The grots with agonizer vs MEQ would change to 0.035.

The Incubi without Klaivex vs MEQ should be 0.033.
The Incubi with Klaivex vs MEQ would change to 0.042.

When I have more time, I will come back here and check/post all of the math so that others can check my math for mistakes. If you're willing to post the formula/math you've used as well, we can work to see where the discrepancy is.

I think you may have forgotten to add in the price of the additional upgrades to the cost of the unit when you divide it out to get the per point value.

We need to bear in mind that these values are their value PER POINT SPENT, so these increases are substantial. It means it's improving the ENTIRE UNIT's efficiency by the given percentage, not just the model who gets the upgrade. Sp a change of 0.025 to 0.035 represents a 40% increase in the entire unit's effectiveness vs. a given enemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sat May 14 2016, 01:52

Betray, thanks for the comment. Here is the formula:

Single model profile
(#of attacks including all bonus attacks )*[chance to hit target]*{chance to wound target}*|enemy save modifier| = # of wounds inflicted against target unit

We have unit cost, we have wounds inflicted, devide and voila. Where it gets tricky is the rerolls and HOW attacks rending. Here is an example of the vanila Grot vs MEQ.

(7) * [1/2] * {2/3+1/3*2/3} * |1/3| =  1.037 wounds inflicted VS a MEQ on a charge

Unit costs 35 pts, so our assault efficiency is 0.0296

Modify the number of attacks and the enemy save modifier and you get the number of attacks arming them with an agonizer gets you (3.55). We are assuming minimum squad size of 3, firstly to justify our extra 2A from Rampage, and secondly to get the “optimal” assault efficiency rating.

Please let me know if my math is wrong, I will correct as needed.


I am not sure what the implications of our findings are. Many of our units cant expect to survive if they pose a major threat to the enemy, especially if we are trying to get into assault range. Maybe in a small squad of Incubi the traid off of survivability is worth the increased damage ouput? If our transport gets wrecked right next to a big bloob of enemy troops, the difference between having 4 models or 5 would be minimal. However, a sucessful charge would be significantly imporved. I am sad that the Lhameans dont have this “buff”.


Rathstar, how did you account for pens in your analysis? I am struggling with how to mathematically represent them. The simple way would to just assign them a HP value (I am hovering between 1.2-1.5 HP), and be done with it. Otherwise it gets way to complicated...
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sat May 14 2016, 08:59

@Kehmor wrote:
This is actually making me have another look at incubi - if only they had assault grenades... either way - vs MEQ, assuming the incubi can actually charge and strike at initiative they should pay for themselves on the first charge. Could be worth keeping a small unit as a deterrent behind los blocking terrain. If only they had grenades....

The problem with them is an old one. They are good against some units, and you need luck 1) to have your enemy list them, and 2) to get in range.

if non of the above takes place, they are worthless and you could have used the points for other units.

my experience is not that good with them, even if the math is true and they got a bag of punch, iam to dumb to get them to use it^^


Last edited by Alvaneron on Sat May 14 2016, 09:12; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 02:15

@fisheyes wrote:

Single model profile
(#of attacks including all bonus attacks )*[chance to hit target]*{chance to wound target}*|enemy save modifier| = # of wounds inflicted against target unit

We have unit cost, we have wounds inflicted, devide and voila. Where it gets tricky is the rerolls and HOW attacks rending. Here is an example of the vanila Grot vs MEQ.

(7) * [1/2] * {2/3+1/3*2/3} * |1/3| =  1.037 wounds inflicted VS a MEQ on a charge

Unit costs 35 pts, so our assault efficiency is 0.0296

Are you giving all units +1 attack from charging? Because if so, that's always going to favor cheaper units vs more elite expensive units, where in practice that won't always be the case. I mean, I understand that is how certain units do their damage with HoW and such, but the additional attacks on a unit of incubi that cost 20 points each has almost double the impact as a unit of grots that cost 35 point each. Maybe any additional attacks that rely on charging as a prerequisite should suffer a 50% penalty to represent the 50/50 nature of whether they get the result or not.

Aside from that, I think our disconnect on math is due to me using decimals and you using fractions. Since fractions go out into infinity when converted to decimals and I stop my decimals at 3 points out, on a large enough problem, it can create a significant variance. So the mistake is probably mine, but I'll take a closer look when I have some more time.

Thanks for posting the example and formula! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 02:47

Betray, the purpose of this analysis was to see the best assault troops who would be useful in a jinking transport. Also, without the charge bonus, we couldent rightly compare to units with HOW (especially Reavers).

However, I DID make a mistake with my Incubi Klaivex calculation. I thought that he gave the UNIT Rampage, but only he gets it. With this revised calculation, the addition of the Klaivex has a negligible affect on our damage efficiency. But the loss of an extra body to pay for the upgrade is highly detrimental to our units survivability.

Although if we trim down to a 3 man Incubi squad we get a 14% increase in damage efficiency (still not worth giving up the extra body though)

In conclusion, the addition of AP to a squad without AP is very beneficial. Caltrops are still amazing. But just throwing in a "sargent" for the increased damage does not make sense. Your better off just adding more bodies.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 03:14

@fisheyes wrote:
Betray, the purpose of this analysis was to see the best assault troops who would be useful in a jinking transport. Also, without the charge bonus, we couldent rightly compare to units with HOW (especially Reavers).

You actually could. I just explained how. You just add a 0.50 multiplier to any attacks that are dependent on charging to take effect, since you can only depend on getting the charge 50% of the time.

@fisheyes wrote:
Although if we trim down to a 3 man Incubi squad we get a 14% increase in damage efficiency (still not worth giving up the extra body though)

That part actually isn't true. You get 3 extra incubi attacks for 10 points by adding a klaivex(3.33points per attack), compared to 2 extra attacks for 20 points(10 points per attack) for adding another body. The absolute most efficient way to purchase incubi, if we don't count transport costs, is in 3 man units with a klaivex, where the klaivex increases the base attacks of the unit by 50%(6 to 9).

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 03:46

Honestly the way our texts works out its really hard to math this stuff.

I mean, personally, I would never run grotesques outside of a grotesquerie.  I did it twice last month and each time the grots preformed horribly compared to the formation (even had an autarch with one group and a succubus with the other and it was still not worth it IMO)

Grotesquerie is just so clean and the the haemonculus isnt really a tax if you use it as your wwp. (a juicy unit to abuse,  grotesquerie can be pretty distracting...)

Will definitely be using agonizers on my abberitions though.  That was very interesting to see the math on.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 13:52

if wyches were 12 points with same stats but agonizer like attacks with 4++ reduced to 5++ to shooting how would that affect the mathhammer
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Sun May 15 2016, 17:32

@doriii wrote:
if wyches were 12 points with same stats but agonizer like attacks with 4++ reduced to 5++ to shooting how would that affect the mathhammer

Easy: They'd be the best CC unit in the book vs everything MEQ or worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

9 Wyches Charging 9 Space Marines(1 died to shooting):

9 Space Marines: 18 overwatch shots > 3 Hits > 1.5 Wounds > 1 Unsaved
9 Wyches: 27 CC Attacks > 13.5 Hits > 6.75 Wounds > 6.75 Unsaved(-7 Space Marines)
2 Space Marines: 4 CC Attacks > 2 Hits > 1.32 Wounds > 0.66 Unsaved(-1 Wych)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Space Marines lose combat by 6, probably run, then get caught by sweeping advance and stay locked in combat until next turn. Wyches are then safely locked in combat through your opponents shooting phase and finish off the marines in your opponent's assault phase, ready to do it all over again on your turn. Wink

Bear in mind, this would be 108 points worth of wyches eating up 126 points of space marines in essentially 1 turn. Agonizers for 2 points per model is probably a bit much. I'd gladly pay significantly more for squads of wyches who all had agonizers.


In "rating" terms, that'd make wyches 0.062 on this chart:
VS MEQ
Wych = 0.062
Incubi = 0.050
Lhamean = 0.042
Khymera = 0.033
Grots = 0.030
Reavers = 0.028
Talos = 0.025
Wracks = 0.025
Sslyth = 0.022

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Mon May 16 2016, 12:05

@WhysoSully wrote:
Will definitely be using agonizers on my abberitions though.  That was very interesting to see the math on.

Yeah its very tempting but for the cost of that abby with agonizer you could have 2 normal grots.

It's a case of more offensive power VS an additional model with many additional attacks + 3 more wounds that can be spread around that the enemy has to wade through.
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