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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 06:22

So with the changes to jinking transport troops, there has been some discussion on switching out our shooty warriors with other assault troops (who are not affected by snapshooting due to the transport jinking).

I have run the numbers for all our troops who can sit in our transports (plus the  khymera just to give some reference to non-transport assault troops). The units analyzed are Lhamean, Sslyth, Wych, Incubi, Wracks, Grots, Reavers and Talos and Khymera.

The numbers listed below are the (wounds inflicted)/(unit point cost). IE if you wanted to know how many wounds a 100 pt lhamean squad puts out, you multiply the number below by 100.

This has been analyzed vs 4 common units: MEQ, GEQ, TEQ and necron wraith (more to show how outclassed we are vs this Tier 1 army).

Please note that I have not included for Reaver/Wych "Combat Drugs", since there is too much variation in the random abilities. I have also not included the PFP bonuses (since we generally dont get them until late game regardless)

These calculations are including wargear (including bonus attacks), and HOW attacks (where relevant).

Assumptions made in these calculations are: We are charging (since the whole point is to see who does best charging out of our jinking transports), and Grots get 2A from "Rampage".

So here goes:

VS MEQ
Incubi = 0.050
Lhamean = 0.042
Khymera = 0.033
Grots = 0.030
Reavers = 0.028
Talos = 0.025
Wracks = 0.025
Sslyth = 0.022
Wych = 0.017

VS TEQ
Incubi = 0.033
Lhamean = 0.021
Talos = 0.020
Khymera = 0.017
Grots = 0.015
Wracks = 0.013
Sslyth = 0.011
Reaver = 0.010
Wych = 0.008

GEQ
Khymera = 0.089
Lhamean = 0.083
Incubi = 0.067
Grots = 0.065
Reaver = 0.059
Sslyth = 0.056
Wrack = 0.050
Wych = 0.050
Talos = 0.030

Necron Wraith
Lhamean = 0.042
Wracks = 0.025
Khymera = 0.022
Sslyth = 0.017
Grots = 0.013
Reaver = 0.012
Incubi = 0.011
Talos = 0.010
Wych = 0.008

So as you can see, our best CC unit (in terms of attack only, and against these common units) is consistently Incubi and Lhamean. So will anyone be buying more Incubi or converting more Lhameans?

Also, wyches suck at killing stuff.

Edit: lots. See my post on page 2


Last edited by fisheyes on Thu May 12 2016, 08:15; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 08:38

Surviving the flight toward battle, surviving the blown Raider, surviving the Overwatch and surviving the fight until initiative 1 comes around (when enemy is in cover) are all factors that Id like to consider when planning my assault unit types.....but that's just me. I like where you are going with this though.

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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 08:39

i see what you did there and understand why, but it is a little confusing the units for 1 point.

your unit of Incubi has a min of 3, 60pts.
60 pts are 6 Lhameans.

There is a big chance you won´t get 3 Incubi into combat, thanks to Overwatch.
6 Lhameans are the better choice, but you need a Raider for them, not a Venom.

You can get 6 Khymera for 60 pts (or 5 with a BM), you don´t need a transport but they can be shot at all the time and (thanks FAQ) you can only attack from attack with INI 1.


Yeah in true theorecrafting, Incubis might look good, but practically we are not fighting in a roman arena Wink
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 09:09

Interesting analysis. I hadn't realised Lhamaeans were such good performers - still super fragile though.

If you wanted to practically use them for assault might need a unit of say 5 Lhamaean / 5 Sslyth in a Raider. Be interesting to see how that combined unit would rank.

Some suggestions to make this more useful:
1) Make the comparisons wounds inflicted per 100 points so we aren't looking at so many decimal places Smile
2) Give two numbers for each - charging and not charging
3) Grotesques are outnumbered most of the time, so it seems reasonable to give them average rage, or have a with rage and without rage entry
4) Give Wyches one of the best drug options - they will still be at or near the bottom
5) Add Talos
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 09:13

I agree that this is very much a "vacuum" analysis of these units. The numbers I posted above are just to get a relative feel for our CC units rather than an accurate expectation of what each can do. By dividing the damage output by the unit cost we are able to better compare “apples to apples”.

And the point of this analysis is to see which units are best for assaulting out of our transports. I included the Khymera just to see what we could expect from a unit that DOESN’T need the transport. I for one was fairly surprised how often they were at the top of the list.

Alvaneron thank you for commenting, but I don’t understand what you are trying to get at with the INI 1 comment. I belive all of these units are lacking assault grenades, so they are fairly equal in this regard.

Kantalla, to get the damage output/100 pts just multiply my numbers by 100 (IE the Incubi would put out 3.33 wounds per 100 pts or 5 guys vs MEQ). I will look into modifying the numbers tomorrow based on your comments.

Can anyone see any mistakes I have made, or other factors that would be good to analyze (its super late over here, I could be missing something big)? I don’t think a (deaths caused by enemy shooting)/(unit cost) analysis would give us much benefit. We all know that our guys will die to a stiff breeze.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 10:09

Are you factoring in the bonus to poison vs t4 and below on the grots?

I played like 2 games with my grotesquerie before I realized they got a bonus vs lower toughness >.<

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 10:12

Yes, I have included for the re-roll of poison vs T4 for the Grots (they have an 89% wound rate due to it if memory serves)
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 10:17

How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 10:30

@WhysoSully wrote:
How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

Truth.
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 10:39

@fisheyes wrote:

Alvaneron thank you for commenting, but I don’t understand what you are trying to get at with the INI 1 comment. I belive all of these units are lacking assault grenades, so they are fairly equal in this regard.

I was trying to compare their way to get into combat.
The Venom or Raider shields their passengers, while the Beasts have to run.
Normally you try to run through cover, which gives you more surivability on your way to your target.
The best option was always to attack from cover with Beasts, but the FAQ states that you will attack with INI 1, since "move through cover" doesn´t give you a normal INI at the assault phase (and Beasts can´t carry grenades XD)
As for me, i played them like this, looks like me and many other players did it wrong ^^

That said, Khymera are most likely to be killed before they get a chance to run into combat.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 11:11

@fisheyes wrote:
Can anyone see any mistakes I have made, or other factors that would be good to analyze (its super late over here, I could be missing something big)? I don’t think a (deaths caused by enemy shooting)/(unit cost) analysis would give us much benefit. We all know that our guys will die to a stiff breeze.
No gross errors that I can see.

There are a couple of gaps - and while I know you were talking about units that can jump out of transports, perhaps Reavers and Talos need to be there too. Maybe characters too.

I agree that it isn't worth running an analysis on how much firepower each unit can take. I think we need to use our judgement and if Incubi do 40% more damage per point than Grotesques, decide whether the resilience of Grots makes them still better.
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 13:51

@fisheyes wrote:
Can anyone see any mistakes I have made, or other factors that would be good to analyze (its super late over here, I could be missing something big)? I don’t think a (deaths caused by enemy shooting)/(unit cost) analysis would give us much benefit. We all know that our guys will die to a stiff breeze.

No, no mistakes there. I kind of like the idea you had, and as Kantalla said i can choose now if the other (dis-)advantages of some units are worth it or not.

Thumbs up Smile
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 14:15

Thanks for explaining that. I hadn't realized that our dogs now have to deal with terrain.

And other suggestions before I update the list? Perhaps another enemy unit we should be considering besides the 4 I used?
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 15:16

Did you take into account rampage on the grots?

edit: oh  you said you didn't include "rage" did you mean rampage?

It would be ncie to have this included seeing as they get it a lot of the time.

edit 2: Rampage aside it is interesting to see slyth out perform grots even by just a bit - at 100 points they are only just under 1 wound behind a unit of grots and have much better shooting. Plus they fit more easily into transports and can have unit diversity.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 15:28

I think leaving rampage out for grots takes away too much of their effectiveness. In units of 3-4, they're almost always outnumbered, so they average an additional 2 attacks per model, per round.

Also, did you give grots their reroll to wound against T3/T4 for having poison weapons, and an extra attack for 2 CC weapons?

I did a similar analysis recently, except I was comparing every CC unit in our codex to basic ork boyz. I found in my analysis that the only units able to stand up to ork boyz, point for point, were grotesques.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 16:00

VS MEQ
Incubi = 0.033
Lhamean = 0.028
Grots = 0.025
Khymera = 0.025
Sslyth = 0.018
Wracks = 0.017
Wych = 0.011

VS TEQ
Incubi = 0.022
Lhamean = 0.014
Grots = 0.013
Khymera = 0.013
Sslyth = 0.009
Wracks = 0.008
Wych = 0.006

GEQ
Grots = 0.072
Khymera = 0.067
Lhamean = 0.056
Sslyth = 0.044
Incubi = 0.044
Wrack = 0.033
Wych = 0.033

Necron Wraith
Lhamean = 0.028
Wracks = 0.017
Khymera = 0.017
Grots = 0.014
Sslyth = 0.013
Incubi = 0.007
Wych = 0.006

I looks like, with the adjusted numbers, Lhameans and Incubi are still slightly ahead in both MEQ and TEQ. Grots pull out ahead to a clear #1 spot against GEQ. Based on your numbers, grots appear in the #4 spot for wraiths because the advantage from grots extra strength doesn't come into play against T5.

I'd say overall, when you consider their toughness and relative surviveability, our best CC unit is still clearly the grotesque against everything except TEQ. The instant death on 6's isn't really represented well by this simple analysis either.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 16:09

@fisheyes wrote:

So as you can see, our best CC unit (in terms of attack only, and against these common units) is consistently Incubi and Lhamean. So will anyone be buying more Incubi or converting more Lhameans?

No.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 16:17

@WhysoSully wrote:
How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

@Painjunky wrote:
@WhysoSully wrote:
How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

Truth.

He was talking about replacing units in Venoms/Raiders

Reavers and Talos cant go in them haha

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 17:08

Though I don't think it's going to dramatically change anything. It is a bit disingenuous to nothe include and drugs for the wyches. Fully 50% of the drug rolls will increase their damage output and it's worth noting that they are troops and infinitely more survivable than lhamaens

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 19:06

@The Red King wrote:
Though I don't think it's going to dramatically change anything.  It is a bit disingenuous to nothe include and drugs for the wyches. Fully 50% of the drug rolls will increase their damage output and it's worth noting that they are troops and infinitely more survivable than lhamaens

While what you say is factually true, the variation among the 3 results that DO effect their damage output is a lot, making it difficult to represent such a thing in an analysis like this. Furthermore, unlike other dice rolls, which variance will self-correct over time, even over the course of a game, that can't happen with drug rolls, which are a once per game thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, if you DID want to include them in your analysis, this is the formula you'd use:

[1 + (0.166*0.166(Strength Result)) + (0.166*0.166(WS Result) + (0.166*1.5(+1A result)) *X] Where X is equal to the prior result on the first chart. You'd have to use a different formula for GEQ, removing the WS result, assuming he already used WS3 instead of WS4 in the original GEQ result.

In an easier to use format, you'd simply multiply their previous result by 1.304.

I applied this formula to the chart, and it really doesn't change their position much, if at all. However, that is assuming all of the original math in this analysis is correct. I have not checked to see if it is.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 19:14

@The Shredder wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

So as you can see, our best CC unit (in terms of attack only, and against these common units) is consistently Incubi and Lhamean. So will anyone be buying more Incubi or converting more Lhameans?

No.

I don't know what you're disagreeing on? Based on his maths (which is accurate)  this is 100% true if we don't include rampage for the grots.

@The Red King wrote:
Though I don't think it's going to dramatically change anything.  It is a bit disingenuous to nothe include and drugs for the wyches. Fully 50% of the drug rolls will increase their damage output and it's worth noting that they are troops and infinitely more survivable than lhamaens

Considering wyches are still going to suck I'm not that interested in that - what I would love to see included is the table from the covens book for grotesqueries
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 19:18

@Kehmor wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

So as you can see, our best CC unit (in terms of attack only, and against these common units) is consistently Incubi and Lhamean. So will anyone be buying more Incubi or converting more Lhameans?

No.

I don't know what you're disagreeing on? Based on his maths (which is accurate)  this is 100% true if we don't include rampage for the grots.

I wasn't disagreeing with anything.

He asked if anyone would be buying/converting more Incubi or Lhamaeans.

My answer is no. No I won't.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 19:19

@The Shredder wrote:
@Kehmor wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

So as you can see, our best CC unit (in terms of attack only, and against these common units) is consistently Incubi and Lhamean. So will anyone be buying more Incubi or converting more Lhameans?

No.

I don't know what you're disagreeing on? Based on his maths (which is accurate)  this is 100% true if we don't include rampage for the grots.

I wasn't disagreeing with anything.

He asked if anyone would be buying/converting more Incubi or Lhamaeans.

My answer is no. No I won't.


Oh I misunderstood, my apologies Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 19:37

This is extremely relevant to my interests...

However, I feel like the succubus needs to be included. My reasoning is that they are cheap and with a blob of something to protect them, they are usually included in with grots to put them to toughness 5-6, I forget what...

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PostSubject: Re: Assault Troop Analysis   Wed May 11 2016, 20:01

@amishprn86 wrote:
@WhysoSully wrote:
How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

@Painjunky wrote:
@WhysoSully wrote:
How about reavers?

IMO our best assault are grots, talos, and reavers.

Truth.

He was talking about replacing units in Venoms/Raiders

Reavers and Talos cant go in them haha

If we are going to ignore our best assault units and talk about filling FOC slots with less useful assault troops, I think this is in the wrong section. Should be in fluff if we arent going to be tactical about our choices.

There is no use at all of having a discussion about DE assault troops without including reavers and talos. Reavers are the damn baseline you compare everything to.



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