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 Death from the Skies 2016

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 15:22

Count Adhemar: sorry about the double post, I was on my phone and couldn't find the edit function.

Quote :
"It says you can´t fire at "air-targets" with attack flyers (incl. Skimmer and Jetbikes) but there is nothing that says you cant fire with full BS and have to use SS."

Where does it say you can't fire at Air Targets with attack flyers?

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"Alot of Questions in this Book XD"

Agreed!

Quote :
"The Book says a Skimmer is a flyer when it comes to count it as ground or air target."

I don't think the book says that skimmers are flyers, the paragraph reads: "Some rules refer to Air or Ground Targets. For these rules, Flyers, Skimmers, Jetbikes, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures are Air Targets. All other types of unit are Ground Targets." So skimmers and such are Air Targets. The only place I have found where BS modifiers are mentioned against Ground and/or Air Targets is in the Fighter Skyfire Mode paragraph, which ends with: "Flyers with the Fighter Combat Role suffer a -1 penalty to the Ballistic Skill on their characteristic profile when targeting Ground Targets."

Quote :
"I read it, that an attack flyer can´t attack a flyer, there is nothing mentioned that is has to be a zooming flyer.
There is nothing mentioned that he can attack a flyer with Snap-Shots either."

An Attack Type flyer can attack another flyer, but can it do so at full BS? The paragraph under "Hard to Hit" says that you must resolve all attacks against flyers as snap shots unless your weapon has the skyfire special rule. I didn't find anywhere that said that attack flyers can choose to enter skyfire mode. Only fighter types have a paragraph stating that they can enter skyfire mode. So if the attack flyer has weapons that have the skyfire special rule then they can attack flyers at full BS, but I don't think they can choose to make all of their weapons skyfire.

Regarding attack flyers shooting at skimmers: skimmers are Air Targets as mentioned above, but they are probably not "Hard to Hit" which zooming flyers are. As far as I have read it, attack flyers don't have modified BS. But it is completely possible I have missed something there. If you know where it talks about it then direct me to it. Thanks. Smile
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 16:13

hmmm good points.

i just gave my book a friend, sorry that i cant tell you the exact page.
But its the first with the rules Wink

The part on the left where the 3 types are explained.
In Attack Flyers it is written that they attack ground-targets.
The same for Bombers
Fighters can attack air-targets with skyfire or ground-targets with -1BS

I read it like that: no air-targets are mentioned for attack flyers, and skimmers count as air-targets, ergo no attacks against skimmer.

Told you, i hope i am wrong, because that doesn´t make sense Very Happy
If you build a logical chain and jump from special rule to special rule to another special rule, it sounds good Smile
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 16:22

Quote :
"The part on the left where the 3 types are explained.
In Attack Flyers it is written that they attack ground-targets.
The same for Bombers"

Ah yes, I know what part you are talking about. pg.58.
I read that part as flavor text as it doesn't seem to outline specifics.
Here's what it says: (hope I'm not typing too much from the book on here)

"- Attack Flyers are designed to attack ground targets from low altitude with their guns and missiles.
 - Bombers are designed to saturate ground targets with bombs and explosive munitions.
 - Fighters are designed to attack enemy flyers, shooting them down before they can carry out their mission."

To me that just didn't outline specific rules enough.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 16:35

So we don't benefit again?

It would be interesting if their is a paragraph saying that shooting at air targets requires skyfire.

If that's true, we are suddenly one heck of a tough army.
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 16:38

There's no paragraph requiring skyfire against air targets.

That would be cool, though.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 19:55

So basically, fighters can shoot air or "air targets" at full BS.

There is no negative whatsoever imposed on opponents of skimmers.

Basically, before air had no negative shooting ground.  Now they will have -1 BS to all except Skimmers and jetbikes.

Everything else is normal.  Skimmers dont count as anything to anyone except fighters and attack fighters (to which the flyers can shoot normal, but the skimmers snapfire back).

I hope I am wrong but thats the way I get it.  Basically think of the worst case possible, assume its right, check the book, and then see its true.

Edit: Although "skyfire mode" would mean you have to snap fire at skimmers as they are still "ground targets" and only count as "Air targets" when rules specifically state.  

Its all overly confusing.  It will be all but ignored by the majority.  There is a small window of games where these types of rules would be fun and its in between competitive and apocalypse and requires 3-4 flyers of which, either you already have, or still dont want to buy.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 20:04

Well ground targets got even better treatment, atack fighter pound them at BS5 in pattern.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Mon May 09 2016, 21:55

Fighters can skyfire, but have a -1 BS verse ground targets. They are the only type with a modifier against certain targets.

Attack Flyers have no negatives or bonus to ground or air. Therefore they have full BS vs normal targets, but can only hit FMC and Flyers with Snap Shots. Attack Flyers do not get skyfire.

Bombers got shafted... Hey are the same as Attack Flyers, but get crappier formation bonuses...

The flight formations provide a variety of bonuses to different targets and that is really where the definition of Ground and Air targets come in.

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KiloFiX
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 03:24

Are 3 Voidravens in Intolerance Pattern with Ignores Cover Large Blast AP2 Bombs still not worth it?
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 05:39

I'm a huge fan of the Voidraven and enjoy the new supplement. Three Voidravens are not worth it. They are to many points. And for about the same price you can get two voids and two fighters. Which are probably still not worth it.

The ability to ignore cover is pretty cool, but not worth the points.
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 05:52

Well there is the problem with Bombs. The special Rule for Intolerance Pattern takes affect after movement phase, but you throw your bomb in your movement phase.

to benefit from it this should happen first:

-round 1: bombers could be first targets in dogfights, survive the first round with them.
-round 2: try to get 3 bomber on the table without getting them engaged in a dogfight, for they will go into ongoing reserve if they do, get them into Intolerance Pattern at the end of your movement phase and survive.
-round 3: Move over some targets in cover and stay on the table (you cannot use the bombs if you are going into ongoing reserve). Hit them hard.

if your bombers survive the first dogfight phase, good job
round 2 is purely luck, because he just has to get 1 bomber into dogfight and you can´t fly in a pattern
where do you find the right targets?

3 bombers without rockets
480 pts

just not worth it
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 06:02

Bombers really did get the short end of the stick in this book. They can't even use the formation benefit on their other weapons, which is a shame since Ignores Cover Dark Scythes would be handy compo while they wait to bomb things! Denied!

If they'd changed the order of operations so that bombs were resolved at the end of the movement phase, when the attack formation bonuses kicked in, then there'd be an argument for taking them for pure 'screw your jinking power armoured bikes and screw your aegis as well'. FAQ draft 2?

In the meantime, I suppose 3 Razors can use the formation and use Ignores Cover Disintegrators on those annoying scatbikes Twisted Evil
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KiloFiX
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 12:18

Assuming somehow they fix the issue with Patterns taking effect at the end of movement and Bombs dropping before (like maybe clarifying that all Bomb rolls are done after movement) - would that make a difference?
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Tue May 10 2016, 14:24

I tried a game with it this weekend. One benefit of the bombs not working in the initial phase:

In turn three my planes broke formation and went after separate targets. The bombs still had the affects from the initial formation. So they had more flexibility to bomb better targets while not worrying about maintaining formation and still had the benefit of increased strength and ignored cover. Bombing while maintaining formation really limits potential targets.

So it isn't all dim and gloom and can been benefiting.
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KiloFiX
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Wed May 11 2016, 04:02

Tried some flyers out. Ok the 3 Void Ravens is tricky but when it works - it works. 3 Razorwings vs Eldar Jetbikes is hilarious.

I only had 2 Razors and 1 Raven but my friends let me proxy as 3 of a kind of either. Now I'm thinking of getting a second Raven for Blackheart.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 14 2016, 19:01

Still waiting for the book in the mail, for the dogfight part do attack flyers and bombers get skyfire for that? or is it a fighter pretty much auto wins?

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KiloFiX
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 14 2016, 21:05

Dogfight is completely different from table top.

First you roll to see if you are the Attacker. If you have more Fighters then you get +1.

Then there are 3 phases where you make 1 of 3 choices and your opponent does the same - resulting in a possible 9 total outcomes between you and your opponent.

In 3 of those outcomes, Attacker wins, in 3 of those Defender wins, and in the remaining 3 you roll to see who wins with a slight edge given to aircraft that have better Pursuit, Agility or are Fighters respectively.

In one of those phases (that favors Agility) you could end up Head to Head, Head to Tail or Head to Side. Head to Tail can only happen if your Agility is 2 higher than your opponent.

If you're Head to Head, you fire Snap regardless of aircraft type (including aFighters), unless the Weapon itself has the Skyfire rule.
If you're Head to Tail, you fire at full Ballistic, regardless of aircraft type.
Any other angle, Fighters or Skyfire Weapons will fire at full Ballistic, while other aircraft types will Snap.

So if you're a Bomber but have 2 better Agility, then you still have a good chance of ending up Head to Tail can can fire at full BS.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 14 2016, 22:07

awesome thanks

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 28 2016, 14:30

You can mix and match RWJF and VR in attack patterns right? Take 3 fighters and 1 bomber for example

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 28 2016, 14:33

@RedRegicide wrote:
You can mix and match RWJF and VR in attack patterns right? Take 3 fighters and 1 bomber for example

Nope.

All has to be the same (2-4 RJF or 2-4 VRB), or, all four has to come from the same formation (2 RJF + 2 VRB in our case).
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies 2016   Sat May 28 2016, 14:38

That's not too bad though. Two void raven ignores cover bombs can go a long way against super cover bikes or a Death Star. Plus the void lances at full BS would be nice too

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