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 Null-Deployment Army

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Null-Deployment Army   Sat May 07 2016, 22:21

Okay, we took a blow to our jawline with latest FAQ. But before there was a bright side with Death from the Skies expansion, mainly air superiority rule. This rule enable us to add or substract +-2 to all  reserve rolls if at the end of dogfight phase there is no enemy flyers in reserve.

If there is - now there is very real chance to bring them down, according to new rules in DftS fighters now chose whether to give all their weapon Skyfire special rule at the beginning of the shooting phase, meaning we can use missiles on other flyers and actually becoming decent in anti air hunting.  

With this good bonus to reserve manipulation new picture is drawing in my head, actually old picture, an army that was used in 5th edition codex with Duke Sliscus.

Basic template of the army is air detachment of 2-3 Razorwings and Scalpel Squadron. This allow army to have the option of not deploying anything at all and have a good boost to its reserves. Im considering all shatterfields on fighters, anti air ability must be maximised.

The rest of the army must come via deep and meet following criteria - maximum impact on arrival,  and, well, being able to deepstrike. After this squad comes it must do its job and maybe survive. If we cant outmanuever and outfight enemy we should probably give as many sure blows as we can, squads may not be what you would take in a point-efficient normal army, but normal is kinda dead so it doesnt matter.

Im considering following squads for the rest of the army.

1) Raider - 5 Kabalites, Sybarite, blaster+blast pistol. From previous experience it was noted that when deep struck raiders can turn its prow and 6" disembarking gives about 8" movement for blast pistol to come into play. Its a do or die squad, taken in multiples preferably.

2) Court of the archon. 2 - 3 medusae, archon, wwp, raider. well nothing can be better for clearing people from cover then medusae in our codex. At least one such unit is needed

3) Blasterborn, classic build, Venoms + 4 blasters. The ubiquitos blaterborn, their advantages are as always being able to hurt both vehicles, infantry and heavy infantry. Deep strike gives them the possibility to fire their blasters. You can probably do something with dracon but im not sure that wouldnt be too expensive, maybe haywire nade.

4) Dark Artisan. It can give a staying zone to our deepstriking units, can also draw fire from.

5) Scourges, Splinter Cannons - high impact anti-infantry, sorta 1.5 venom in one go. If i remember one of the fellow denizen mathhammering, point for point they are best impact anti-infantry tool we have. As they are expensive they are not expendable and they better fire more then once.

6) Fast-Atack Venoms - cheap, empty, doing what venoms are supposed to be doing.

Ok, so whats good about this army, pros:

1) Ability to actually hurt something with some expensive toys, impact style arrival, like Razorwings always comes in wings in air detachment.
2) Not racing across the board playing in latest season of "shoot the xenos", screw that.
3) Suffering less turns overall per game of enemy shooting, concentrating on killing certain units in 3-4 turns, bringing more of your army to hurt enemy army, maximizing MSU potential by minimizing participation in game turns (you cant kill em all).
4) Playing in later turns, when more PfP benefits has kicked in

Cons:

1) Interceptor, that would be counter to this army type, im okay with that. There are ways around this
2) Mishaps, thats bad, but with our speed thats just means loss of one turn for one unit. Flat-Out. Or death....oh,well.
3) Losing on Maelstrom while you are not on the table. Should definately place your objectives away from cover - to punish enemy for those points when you arrive from reserve.
4) You can insta lose if you lose Scalpel Squadron on turn 1, or if your reserves rolls are particulary bad.
 
All cons can be described as - its a dicy strategy. It may go well, it may go bad, but at least it have potential to go well. Good enough for me.

Okay that was my thought process on the subject, hope some of you got interested.

Now where were those Razorwings boxes...

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 00:47

Does the bonus to reserves apply to all units in the army, or just the flyers?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 01:11

@Azdrubael wrote:
From previous experience it was noted that when deep struck raiders can turn its prow and 6" disembarking gives about 8" movement for blast pistol to come into play.

This is illegal. Per the rules for deepstriking vehicles, you can't change a vehicle's facing in the movement phase after it deep strikes.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 05:31

Quote :
Does the bonus to reserves apply to all units in the army, or just the flyers?

To all army, and penalty for all opponenents army.


Quote :
Per the rules for deepstriking vehicles, you can't change a vehicle's facing in the movement phase after it deep strikes.
There is no need to - il just point raiders nose to the direction of the target.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 19:47

@Azdrubael wrote:

Quote :
Per the rules for deepstriking vehicles, you can't change a vehicle's facing in the movement phase after it deep strikes.
There is no need to - il just point raiders nose to the direction of the target.

Fair enough, but that's not the sentiment you were projecting when you posted this:

@Asdrubael wrote:

1) Raider - 5 Kabalites, Sybarite, blaster+blast pistol. From previous experience it was noted that when deep struck raiders can turn its prow and 6" disembarking gives about 8" movement for blast pistol to come into play. Its a do or die squad, taken in multiples preferably.

So let's not pretend this was a "just as planned" moment. Razz


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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 20:20

Okay, i dont remember if it was this way last edition. Still was hoping more comment on the substance, then on details.

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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun May 08 2016, 22:34

There are some Problems i am guessing.

@Azdrubael wrote:
This rule enable us to add or substract +-2 to all  reserve rolls if at the end of dogfight phase there is no enemy flyers in reserve.

Yes, but you only have Air Superiority if the enemy has no more flyers in Reserve.
If he has 2 Stormraven and you have 3 Razorwing, it wouldnt count in the first Round.
Second Round, everyone rolls a normal reserve roll, maybe you got every RW on the Table or he gets every SR, not important.
Third Round, if you have some flyers in reserve and he doesn´t, good job.
Third Round, if he has a SV in reserve, and you have nothing, bad job.

And here is the catch:
Most Armys can choose to do +1/-1 on their own roll or they are even able to tell "well i just dont want to and like to fail".
The chances that he has something in reserve in the third Round is small.
You won´t benefit alot from it.

Second, it looks like you have very little AT-Punch.
Blasterborn got nerfed, since you only have 5+ flickerfield because you have to snap-shot after jink, and you dont want to jink anymore. (if you ever wanted to...)

Your Army looks like a huge Glashammer. After you got down via DS you have to (nearly-) tabel him or he just shoots you down and kills the rest of you in CC.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Tue May 31 2016, 16:27

I like your thinking, and have had similar thoughts myself.
IMO:
Cut the raider out for haywire scourges
Cut dark artisan out, I play a lot of ITC so I wouldn't have the space for it as well as it isn't going to drop huge damage on its arrival. Maybe keep a talos on a backfield objective if you like them.

Side thought: could a unit of 20 kabalite be worth WW in? 40 poison shots at 4 points a shot, lots of wounds, and can protect a melee HQ if you like those.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Tue May 31 2016, 22:07

As Alvaneron said above you cannot rely on the +/-2 all the time.

RWs are mediocre AA even with the missiles firing.

Null deploy is a solid tactic and the units you suggested make sense. I like to just move on wherever possible tho. I don't trust that evil scatter dice.

Just take the coms or an allied autarch for reliable reserve manipulation.
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Tue May 31 2016, 23:34

Null deployment for the win.  

Im using the Infiltration Cadre in my Tau force and its just so great to be able to dictate the first two rounds.

This idea of yours is kind of that, only not as reliable. Still, i like the basic concept.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Wed Jun 08 2016, 23:57

IMO null deployment is more of a tool to deal with alpha strike armies wihout interception (Eldar) than a consistent strategy itself.

I use 3 mandrakes (to stay on the board) and a single unupgraded Razorwing jetfighter (get/avoid air superiority) in my DE/Harlequin army and so far so good.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Thu Jun 09 2016, 19:08

What about running two scalpel squadrons?

I think the DA makes a good warlord for this style list. He's survivable, can pinpoint deepstrike and will mulch your opponents troops or weak transports easily.

I think this list could also potentially make use of a fortification.

Lastly if you are going to spam fliers I feel like one could get away with a Voidraven in the list just due to having multiple fliers and it causing a target priority issue.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun Jun 12 2016, 03:14

@Painjunky wrote:
As Alvaneron said above you cannot rely on the +/-2 all the time.

The same modifier applies to all units, or am I wrong? Add to that that you can roll one dice for all three wings. This trait is independent from the "air commander" trait. Statistically, all three units will arrive on the same turn in turn two or three.

So if your opponent does have air-support, you get the modifier and he suffers a -1 modifier. If he doesn't have air-support, good, that means you can use the ammunition on ground units.

To take into account is the scatter. What I see here is a gamble. I just feel that it would be tempting to punish groundly prey with aircraft.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Sun Jun 12 2016, 21:14

Like mentioned above, this method was used in the fifth edition. The method was also known as "insane". The method is about letting the oponent go first so you can strike according to his early moves. It is sort of a blitz-tactic, utilizing high-threat units the enemy will have to target, opening for an offensive playstyle.

Three razorwings raining hell on you? Yea go do something about it.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Mon Jun 13 2016, 00:43

Don't double post. Edit your previous comments plux.

I believe they more mean you can't rely on the +/-2 as you may not always qualify for it due to it being an if/then add-on to Air Commander that only comes into effect if your Wing Leader is in reserves, and you qualify for Air superiority, If either of those 2 clauses are not met you do not get the +2.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Null-Deployment Army   Tue Jun 14 2016, 21:52

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Don't double post. Edit your previous comments plux.

I believe they more mean you can't rely on the +/-2 as you may not always qualify for it due to it being an if/then add-on to Air Commander that only comes into effect if your Wing Leader is in reserves, and  you qualify for Air superiority, If either of those 2 clauses are not met you do not get the +2.

And the 2+ is most useful when your opponent has air support. Statistically, the chance that your forces enter the field without the +2 after turn three is one in nine.

@lament.config wrote:
What about running two scalpel squadrons?

Interesting idea. Tell us how they would survive the two first rounds. They do score D3 victory points if they claim first blood.
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