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 New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?

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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 13:26

@Azdrubael wrote:

Unclear ruling so far:
It isnt clear if fighters may dogfight and then enter table from reserves on the same turn.
It isnt clear when air superiority rule starts to work in regarding to dogfight phase.

on the left side of phase 4 in dogfight (next to the table) it says that all flyers that engaged and survived the dogfight-phase are going into ongoing reserve.
That means you are able to keep the Stormraven off the table if you win the challenge for dogfight and choose him and everyone survives all the time.

Air Superiority starts after dogfight and before reserve rolls. If you win Dogfight by shooting is Stormraven down, and he has no other flyer, you get Air Superiority.
If everone survives the dogfight, everyone has a flyer, noone gets Air Superiority.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Tue May 10 2016, 03:43

@Azdrubael wrote:
1. Distance. Win or roll off +pursuit to see if you win - you get to chose the distance flyers are spaced between each other. Naturally we want to chose 36, lances and rockets Range and away from some close range guns of the enemy.

The winner can disengage, and roughly 1/3 times the defender will win regardless of your pursuit value... better take a few levels in psychology Smile

@Azdrubael wrote:
2. Position.  Win or roll off +agility to if you win - you get to turn enemy flyer 90 degress, or 180 degrees if your agility is at least 2 points higher. Thats answer to your question - if we win here we get to shoot Raven to the back. Winner can declare Jink here, only here in the whole dogfight phase.

I think it's only the Heldrake that we can't take advantage of rear av? The rest are either low enough agility, or have the same av all around.

On a tangent it's pretty annoying that so many flyers have fat armour all around. What's the point of getting on the tail of your SM friend's flying lunchbox only to find it's as fat behind as it is in front?

On weapon fire arcs. I assume (nothing is really said either way) that weapon fire arcs still apply in a dogfight, so since 95% of flyer weapons are on fixed forward mounts, the best way to get out unscathed is to turn your opponent 90 degrees plus in this phase.

Unfortunately all this means that for a Razor to successfully nail an enemy flyer in a dogfight, it has to:
1. Win the roll-off to actually have a dogfight phase
2. Win the rock-paper-scissors to get the range right
3. Win the RPS to get the angle right
4. Finally shoot its (still underpowered) guns plus missiles, hit, and do enough damage to kill

Assuming favourable pursuit/agility, you have ~ 20% chance of successfully engaging. In one dogfight phase per (game!) turn, with up to one flyer. For sure it could be fun, but I'm not seeing domination of the skies here.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Tue May 10 2016, 16:10

@Creeping Darkness wrote:

I think it's only the Heldrake that we can't take advantage of rear av? The rest are either low enough agility, or have the same av all around.

Well.. the stormhawk has slightly lower armor in the rear (11), and a low agility of 3 - but the high altitude flyer rule gives it +1 to pursuit/agility in a dogfight so I guess that means it'll be immune to the whole "spin your partner" thing.

@amishprn86 wrote:
Yes its official, Im not arguing it isnt. But 40k APoc is official too. Doesnt mean everyone plays it. its another book you dont have to play it.

So far in the 2 "reviews" I've found, the authors actually couldn't get anyone to play the dog-fighting phase of the supplement with them.  Many players consider bloat to be a problem in 40k already - adding more phases isn't going to help.  A whole lot of groups are simply going to skip it.

It looks like the rest can be implemented pretty cleanly without it though.
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 08:00

from my perspective most groups are "all or nothing" groups. I never saw someone that uses 2 Rules from a Book but ignores all others.

you could implement the others rules quit well, yes, but why should you?
More rules, more complex, and more questions.
And you always need one more book for answers

Despite the fact that some Armys got nerfed in comparison, i think most of the groups are going to say "lets ignore this book at all"
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 08:03

My local is treating it like Apoc, its added extra rules and steps for players wanting it, but its not part of the core BRB and it is treated like Codex's where its rules will over right the BRB rules, we all feel this is what is intended anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 08:36

The book is not optional...


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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 08:54

@Massaen wrote:
The book is not optional...

No, but if no one gives a crap about it (or even bought it), it will be like the old DftS, Escalation or whatever kind of book no one uses.

yeah, if you play on tournaments your chances are high that this book will be mandatory.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 09:05

@Massaen wrote:
The book is not optional...


Anyone able to tell me exactly what the "first section of the Burning Skies rules" includes? Anything else is still optional. Mind you, according to various recent responses from GW on social media, even using the most recent version of rules is optional these days!

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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 09:07

just the location in the book.

The first section declares some rules

in other sections there a air-missions and datasheets
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 09:32

@Massaen wrote:
The book is not optional...


1) No one cares
2) I bet many tournaments wont use them
3) My local agreed to not use them so why do I care what you do?
4) I will only play them if they Faq it into the BrB faq

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 11:46

I think the issue here is that yes, Death from the Skies replaces rules from the basic rulebook, however if you and your opponent agree not to use it, then you don't need to use it, after all it is a supplement to the rulebook, not part of that book (tbh you can even agree with an opponent not to use parts of the actual rulebook if you wish).

Nothing in the rulebook is actually mandatory for any game you play outside of tournaments, it's just that its much easier to play using the rulebook and any changes they make to it (by easy I mean not assuming house rules or conventions to not use/amend parts of the rulebook).

Inside tournaments, it's entirely up to the Organiser to decide if the Death from the Skies supplement will be used. Even then as I understand it the dogfight phase is still optional and if neither player wants to use it they don't have to.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 16:46

Obviously any two players can agree to do whatever they like.

But if one person wants to use it, the other one's stuck with it. I suppose you could roll off on a D6 for it, but I think forcing your opponent to roll off for the inclusion of core game rules seems problematic. If I can make my opponent have to roll a dice to use the flyer rules, couldn't I do the same for the psychic phase or Codex: Space Marines?

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 16:49

@Calyptra wrote:
Obviously any two players can agree to do whatever they like.

But if one person wants to use it, the other one's stuck with it. I suppose you could roll off on a D6 for it, but I think forcing your opponent to roll off for the inclusion of core game rules seems problematic. If I can make my opponent have to roll a dice to use the flyer rules, couldn't I do the same for the psychic phase or Codex: Space Marines?

But the Psychic phase is in the BRB the DftS is a supplement book. The same as Apoc is a Supplement or the Campaign books.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 16:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Calyptra wrote:
Obviously any two players can agree to do whatever they like.

But if one person wants to use it, the other one's stuck with it. I suppose you could roll off on a D6 for it, but I think forcing your opponent to roll off for the inclusion of core game rules seems problematic. If I can make my opponent have to roll a dice to use the flyer rules, couldn't I do the same for the psychic phase or Codex: Space Marines?

But the Psychic phase is in the BRB the DftS is a supplement book. The same as Apoc is a Supplement or the Campaign books.

I honestly don't know: is there a basis for rules in supplements being optional, or is it just that it's a supplement?

On the back cover of Codex: Space Marines it says, "A supplement for Warhammer 40,000."

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 20:42

I emailed GW this is also what they said.

Quote :
If you take a look at page 58 it does talk about how the Death from the Skies rules expand upon those from the rulebook, if you are using the Death from the Skies book.

Thanks,

--
Mr. Madison Blair

To me this sounds like if you do use Dfts rules then you follow the rules on pg 58.

And what are the rules on page 58 I personally dont have the book. But Im assuming it is DftS rules over right the BRB rules.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 11 2016, 21:28

Page 58 is the "Updated rules" section but mostly just copypasta from the brb - the changes on that page are the introduction of the 3 flyer types as well as pursuit and agility.  This section continues on to Page 59 where the actual changes begin.  This page contains the "fighters get skyfire but no-one else does" rule, adding pursuit value to flat out moves, and the break turn (roll agility and make an extra 90 degree turn) rules.  No rules for the dogfight phase are present, except for a mention of air superiority being declared after the dogfight phase.

The rules for dogfights are in a different section beginning on page 68 and I don't specifically see a way to opt out of it, besides acknowledging this part of the book as supplemental.

I expect the way my group will play it is to include the updated flyer rules (which I view as mandatory),  and attack wings will be allowed just like any other formation - but in most games dog fights will be ignored.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 12 2016, 01:24

So in other words players now have an aircraft tax unless they want to have a -1 to their reserve rolls guaranteed against them as that is now considered a core rule not an optional rule.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 12 2016, 09:05

Exactly.

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