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amishprn86
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PostSubject: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Wed May 04 2016, 23:55

Witht he new faqs... erratas, in the MC/GMC section it stats that Fliers and FMC can fire at other Fliers and FMC.

So with that ruling, DE fliers can now fire Missiles at other fliers!!!!!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?s=f2e0e83d22fc3147b9c71bd377a0251d&attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 00:17

@amishprn86 wrote:
Fliers and FMC with skyfire can fire blasts at other Fliers and FMC

Fixed that for you. But yes it's a godsend to the Razorwing. Now there's actually a reason to consider shatterfield missiles as well, although they are still pricey for +1S. If there's a way in the Death from the Skies supplement to reliably get rear shots on other fliers then the Razor is actually starting to look half decent!
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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 00:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
Witht he new faqs... erratas, in the MC/GMC section it stats that Fliers and FMC can fire at other Fliers and FMC.

So with that ruling, DE fliers can now fire Missiles at other fliers!!!!!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?s=f2e0e83d22fc3147b9c71bd377a0251d&attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

It says it may be targeted by it, no where does it say it may hit it.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 01:12

Is that a joke

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 01:16

@megatrons2nd wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Witht he new faqs... erratas, in the MC/GMC section it stats that Fliers and FMC can fire at other Fliers and FMC.

So with that ruling, DE fliers can now fire Missiles at other fliers!!!!!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?s=f2e0e83d22fc3147b9c71bd377a0251d&attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

It says it may be targeted by it, no where does it say it may hit it.


Please dont troll, we have enough of that right now.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 02:24

Notice the FAQ says that blast/templates may not hit flyers in several locations. Then notice that the one entry that says a skyfire weapon may "target" a flyer. No where, in the entire document does it allow for a blast/template weapon to hit a flyer, only target it. Not joking, not trying to troll, just pointing out a fact. It may be intended that a blast/template weapon with skyfire being allowed to hit said flyer if it were the target, but that is not what it says. It would actually make sense that said weapon could hit it, as area effect weapons are the best means of hitting an airborne target, just with a caveat that if it targets an airborne unit, it may not hit ground units if it scatters on to them, but that is a different conversation for a different time.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 03:15

I would imagine the distinction made between targeting and hitting is to support the other areas of the rules and FAQ that disallow scattering blasts affecting flyers.

I don't have the main book handy, but am sure that hitting is a logical consequence of targeting, and that permission to target grants permission to hit subsequent to said targeting. The curious wording is I believe merely to emphasise that hits (with blast weapons) may not be scored on fliers unless the flier was targeted (by a blast weapon with skyfire).
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 09:44

If the death from the skies supplement is decent, I might need more flyers.

Perhaps I don't need to buy into corsair at all...
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Thu May 05 2016, 10:09

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I would imagine the distinction made between targeting and hitting is to support the other areas of the rules and FAQ that disallow scattering blasts affecting flyers.

I don't have the main book handy, but am sure that hitting is a logical consequence of targeting, and that permission to target grants permission to hit subsequent to said targeting. The curious wording is I believe merely to emphasise that hits (with blast weapons) may not be scored on fliers unless the flier was targeted (by a blast weapon with skyfire).

This is how I was reading it too, and I would love ot play DE fliers like back in 5th ed, I have 5 total, tho 1 I cut a Engine out HAHA, I can make it look super cool now I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Fri May 06 2016, 17:31

The Dark Talon Formation provides preferred enemy to a single unit as well.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Sun May 08 2016, 21:48

Honestly, I want to remember who it was who I was giving advice on when they wanted to field like 3 jets...

We might be pissed about the loss of jink and other things....but I think that we got a nice showing in the death from the skies. I'm thinking of getting some fliers....

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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Sun May 08 2016, 22:51

@Korazell wrote:
Honestly, I want to remember who it was who I was giving advice on when they wanted to field like 3 jets...

We might be pissed about the loss of jink and other things....but I think that we got a nice showing in the death from the skies. I'm thinking of getting some fliers....

Dont, the DftS rules are saying that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons. No BS mentioned, no Snap-Shots either.
It contradicts with the FAQ.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Sun May 08 2016, 23:22

DftS merely restates those rules from the rule book. I would suggest the FAQ applies to both.
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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 00:15

@Alvaneron wrote:
@Korazell wrote:
Honestly, I want to remember who it was who I was giving advice on when they wanted to field like 3 jets...

We might be pissed about the loss of jink and other things....but I think that we got a nice showing in the death from the skies. I'm thinking of getting some fliers....

Dont, the DftS rules are saying that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons. No BS mentioned, no Snap-Shots either.
It contradicts with the FAQ.


I don't see the problem with firing four weapons. 2 DL, two missiles. Am I missing something?

Do you have a source on these rules so I can review them?

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 02:05

@Korazell wrote:
@Alvaneron wrote:
@Korazell wrote:
Honestly, I want to remember who it was who I was giving advice on when they wanted to field like 3 jets...

We might be pissed about the loss of jink and other things....but I think that we got a nice showing in the death from the skies. I'm thinking of getting some fliers....

Dont, the DftS rules are saying that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons. No BS mentioned, no Snap-Shots either.
It contradicts with the FAQ.


I don't see the problem with firing four weapons. 2 DL, two missiles.  Am I missing something?

Do you have a source on these rules so I can review them?

Rulebook says you can fire "up to four weapons at full ballistic skill if you moved at combat or cruising speed"

People asked on the GW Facebook FAQ first draft if flyers could fire 4 weapons at full ballistic skill while also firing other weapons as snapshots.  The response was "Yes".

The Death From the Skies book contains pages that are written as saying they replace the main rulebook.  Some of these rules are exactly the same as the main rulebook and some are different to reflect the different flyer roles (bomber/fighter) and the pursuit and agility values adding distance to flat out and the 90 degree break turn.  

There is a change in the Zooming and Shooting paragraph that says "Zooming Flyers may fire up to four of its weapons in the shooting phase."  This is where the contradiction comes from.

To be honest, I have always interpreted it as you can only fire four weapons in the shooting phase but now that I've reread it I could see how you could make that argument.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 02:58

I kind of think that you could still fire four up to full BS.

I'm not seeing anywhere that it would make you think otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 09:35

@Korazell wrote:
I kind of think that you could still fire four up to full BS.

I'm not seeing anywhere that it would make you think otherwise.

Well my guess is, if you and your friends are playing without DftS, you can shoot 4 with full BS and the rest with SS.
If you play with DftS, then you are only able to shoot 4 with full BS, and nothing with SS.
Because of the different release dates Laughing

Rulebook < FAQ Beta < DftS

In the near future it will be

Rulebook < DftS < FAQ final
affraid
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 09:52

The Draft is just that, a draft, its not official yet at all so dont play those rules till GW says they are official.

DftS might be official, but it technically a addon, so it is not required to play with those rules, unless someone wants to.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 10:38

@amishprn86 wrote:
DftS might be official, but it technically a addon, so it is not required to play with those rules, unless someone wants to.

Might be official? It is official, there is no discussion there.

Like to see the argument if one player wants to play with the official GW Rule that replace the old ones, and the one who doesn´t ^^
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 10:42

@Alvaneron wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
DftS might be official, but it technically a addon, so it is not required to play with those rules, unless someone wants to.

Might be official? It is official, there is no discussion there.

Like to see the argument if one player wants to play with the official GW Rule that replace the old ones, and the one who doesn´t ^^

Why you so mad? Yes its official, Im not arguing it isnt. But 40k APoc is official too. Doesnt mean everyone plays it. its another book you dont have to play it.

If player A and player B doesnt have the rules they can not play by them, that is basic info. And if a tournament plays them (I dont see why they wouldnt, but a couple might not) or if you local ways for the next league they are using them, then you must play them during those games.

I mean the BRB even says this.

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 12:02

They are talking about the number of weapons that can be fired with full BS. The rest is always snapshot. So I don't see the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 12:17

@amishprn86
wasnt mad, and yes you are right. If they don´t have the Book they can´t play with it. But since the Book buffed some Armys like Eldar and Dark Eldar and nerfed Marines (in comparison because they are now slower than us and can´t take turns like we do) it is quit a hard stand to tell your friend "i want to play with it" and he doesn´t. It replaces the Rules of the BRB, that could be a problem in those cases.

@CptMetal
BRB states you can fire 4 Weapons at full BS, nothing about SS. So they asked and the FAQ Draft is saying "yes, 4 full BS, other SS". But the DftS says nothing about full BS or anything about SS.
Yes, RAI is again "fire 4 with full BS, and FAQ says others with SS", but i contradicts a little bit because BS is not mentioned in DftS.
If the sentence would be the same in the BRB like "four with full BS", it would be clear Wink
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 13:06

I just cant wait till the new BRB honestly haha

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 13:07

@amishprn86 wrote:
I just cant wait till the new BRB honestly haha

yeah, its time to get nerfed again Suspect Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQS to fliers, DE fliers OP?   Mon May 09 2016, 13:09

Quote :
If there's a way in the Death from the Skies supplement to reliably get rear shots on other fliers then the Razor is actually starting to look half decent!

There are 3 rock-scissor-paper rolls that made in the dogfight subphase.

1. Distance. Win or roll off +pursuit to see if you win - you get to chose the distance flyers are spaced between each other. Naturally we want to chose 36, lances and rockets Range and away from some close range guns of the enemy.

2. Position.  Win or roll off +agility to if you win - you get to turn enemy flyer 90 degress, or 180 degrees if your agility is at least 2 points higher. Thats answer to your question - if we win here we get to shoot Raven to the back. Winner can declare Jink here, only here in the whole dogfight phase.

3. Who fire first. Win or fighter > atack craft > bomber. You get to fire first. One of the table get +1BS if you win.

After this preparation Flyers get to shot each other. Depending on facing and ranges.

Facing:
Face to Face - shoot snapfire unless you have Skyfire (meaning in most cases unless you are Fighter)
Face to Tail - flyer who faces rear get to fire at full BS, flyer who turned his rear get to snapfire, unless he have Skyfire.
Other Angles - fighter get to fire at full BS, atack craft and bombers as snapshots, unless they have skyfire.

All in all fighters vs fighters seems to be a quick and explosive affair, no matter what they are facing they are firing at full bs and get to fire even if they are tailed. The only advantage is who get to shoot first and do they have weaker facing on the rear.

Atack craft and bombers punished in dogfight, most of the time they snapshot, if its heavy (agility 3) they will be reared by Razorwings. There isnt option to jink at will, only if you win second roll off.

The most downside to dogfighting rule is first - if you want to play dogfighting do so, if not roll off. If player win roll of then dogfighting happens. Naturally storm ravens guys will not want to be dogfighting with Razorwings.

Unclear ruling so far:
It isnt clear if fighters may dogfight and then enter table from reserves on the same turn.
It isnt clear when air superiority rule starts to work in regarding to dogfight phase.

All in all i see DE as a top tier air superiority army, on par with Crimson Death CWE, maybe better.
Triple Razorwings is enough to clear the skies from most threats and get to fight with crimson hunters also, if not wining then contesting for sure.

Lots of air atack patterns specifically to destroy air targets - triple fighters get to chose between tank hunter, ignore cover and atack with +1 and +2 bs on single target. That last atack pattern can atack after flat out.

Formation in indomitable atack pattern is expensive but not crap.

Razorwings essentially got drastically better in killing flyers - front get +1BS, all get ignore cover, tank hunting, interceptor, +1 jink, preferred enemy against one unit.

Bombers got better with bombs, but you drop bomb during bombing run and those are made before you get bonus for pattern.

Next turn they can use bomb which gains following - ignore cover, reroll on armor penetration, +1S on bomb of a front model. Also they get +1 jink, preferred enemy against one unit during all time.

Atack pattern get the bonus at the end of movement phase and maintain it even when models in it get destroyed.

So if you enter from reserves and end your movement in atack pattern - say you want to create rocket hell, on the next turn bombers can separate and chose targets to make bombing runs with improved bombs, bonus will still work. In addition if they will double up and enter vigilance pattern they will get +1 to jink. And say with Night Shield thats 2+ cover save.

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