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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:15

One thing I find hilarious is Lance vs Quantum Shielding - we're told that the rules cancel each other out and just to use the base armour value of the unit (11). This is actually lower than if we'd just used the Lance rule. Laughing
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:39

I dont know what to do. I have so much wasted money on models in the past 2 months because of the new releases or rule changes. Do I keep collecting? Just feel like crap because It feels like I wasted my money. How do you guys deal with this?

Dark eldar might as well be melted to make more space marines. So dumb.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:43

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Deathwasp11
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:45

Well, in my opinion, you have to ask first how bad is it really. I'm not sure yet myself but It looks pretty bad. I'm personally trying to stay out of the sky is falling frame of mind. I'm going to keep playing my DE in friendly games with my buddys, but I am dropping out of the leauge I'm in, I don't have the money to pay to play a game I don't think I can win.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:51

I'm naively hoping that the next edition Codex will make them decent to play. I won't feel bad about the money invested if they do this.

Personally I'm moving onto Corsairs, the book should be showing up in the next few days (ordered last week) and I'll begin seriously looking at what I'm getting and converting to make an army.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:54

Well, no long-time DE player ever stuck with the army because it wasn't a challenge to play. Razz

Could be worse - could be 4th edition, with auto-pin and rerolled wounds on passengers inside crashed raiders. Razz
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:56

@krayd wrote:
Well, no long-time DE player ever stuck with the army because it wasn't a challenge to play. Razz

Could be worse - could be 4th edition, with auto-pin and rerolled wounds on passengers inside crashed raiders. Razz

Having units in a vehicle being effective, sounds nice. Good luck moving 6" a turn if you dont want to snap fire while bikes move 12" twin linked.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 21:59

Didnt you get it guys? Even if transport got Jink in previous turn and next turn it disembarked passangers will still do snap shots. Ffs. This is direct nerf, never nobody been playing like that.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:12

I will invest into the corsair book first...

Seriously.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:17

But to be fair: I wasn't using Raiders nevertheless and now I'm not even bothering to do so. Venom MSU for the win. I don't jink with them anyway in favor of the 5++.

Sorry for double post. On my phone
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:23

@The Shredder wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

I dont think that applies.

Its not a resale thing, its that what I purchased was changed to be useless.

I am not saying I wasted $30 because I bought them for $70 and sold for $40.

I am saying I wasted my money because I bought them for $70 and then someone decided to change the rules to the point that it is no longer the same thing I paid for.

Like you pay $10,000 for a new car, and 2 months later you neighbor decides that it should have 3 wheels now instead of 4 and comes over and takes one wheel off. Now you have to sell your car to a different market than you purchased it from as people still want 4 wheel cars but you are stuck with a 3 wheel car and even if you dont want to sell it, it will only work on certain roads and even then it moves super slow.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:38

@WhysoSully wrote:
Like you pay $10,000 for a new car, and 2 months later you neighbor decides that it should have 3 wheels now instead of 4 and comes over and takes one wheel off.  Now you have to sell your car to a different market than you purchased it from as people still want 4 wheel cars but you are stuck with a 3 wheel car and even if you dont want to sell it, it will only work on certain roads and even then it moves super slow.

I would prefer an analogy of buying a motorcycle with a side car, the neighbor stole your side car and no one wants to buy a motorcycle at this time with no side car. Razz
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Deathwasp11
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:41

I see it more as buying a motorcycle with a side car, and now side cars are illegal.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:42

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
@WhysoSully wrote:
Like you pay $10,000 for a new car, and 2 months later you neighbor decides that it should have 3 wheels now instead of 4 and comes over and takes one wheel off.  Now you have to sell your car to a different market than you purchased it from as people still want 4 wheel cars but you are stuck with a 3 wheel car and even if you dont want to sell it, it will only work on certain roads and even then it moves super slow.

I would prefer an analogy of buying a motorcycle with a side car, the neighbor stole your side car and no one wants to buy a motorcycle at this time with no side car. Razz

Yeah you are better at analogys than me lmao but that just about sums it up.

Can someone literally walk into games workshop headquarters and find out what the deal is? This FAQ makes me want to sell my models and spend all the money on that website that literally sends cow poop to people. (not really going to, but I do chuckle to myself at the thought)

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 22:49

@WhysoSully wrote:

I dont think that applies.  

Its not a resale thing, its that what I purchased was changed to be useless.  

I am not saying I wasted $30 because I bought them for $70 and sold for $40.

I am saying I wasted my money because I bought them for $70 and then someone decided to change the rules to the point that it is no longer the same thing I paid for.

The sunk cost fallacy has little, if anything, to do with resale.

The whole point is that you've already spent that money, whether you get a return on it (including enjoyment) or not. Hence, you need to be objective when considering whether to invest more.

Basically, just be careful not to fall into the mindset of 'well, I've already spent £70 on 40k/Dark Eldar stuff, so I might as well carry on.' As above, that money is already gone. Consider if investing into a different army or hobby might yield more enjoyment for your money.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Wed May 04 2016, 23:14

@The Shredder wrote:
@WhysoSully wrote:

I dont think that applies.  

Its not a resale thing, its that what I purchased was changed to be useless.  

I am not saying I wasted $30 because I bought them for $70 and sold for $40.

I am saying I wasted my money because I bought them for $70 and then someone decided to change the rules to the point that it is no longer the same thing I paid for.

The sunk cost fallacy has little, if anything, to do with resale.

The whole point is that you've already spent that money, whether you get a return on it (including enjoyment) or not. Hence, you need to be objective when considering whether to invest more.

Basically, just be careful not to fall into the mindset of 'well, I've already spent £70 on 40k/Dark Eldar stuff, so I might as well carry on.' As above, that money is already gone. Consider if investing into a different army or hobby might yield more enjoyment for your money.

I gotcha, I get your context now.   How much I spent is not whats determining whether I should keep going or not, its whats making me feel depressed.  

Basically its not the value of my models or how much I paid or how much I might get for them,  its the fact that I paid for an expected experience and the company providing the items changed their use to the point its not what I paid for anymore.  It would be one thing if it was a new edition or they changed the codex, but there is no logical reason for this much of a nerf and the fact that they wont even acknowledge what they are doing.

Like their example about baseball:

Having already bought the ticket and realizing you dont like it, you can:

1. go the the baseball game and have a bad time.
2. do something else with your time you enjoy better.


Basically like you said dont let the cost of the ticket affect what you do with your time.

Why I am upset is that in this case, I bought tickets to baseball, and then a week later they call me and tell me that they changed the rules and are instead playing on a wooden field an that instead of a small white ball its going to be a large orange one and that instead of running bases the goal will be to throw the large orange ball through a hoop while only half as many players will be allowed on the court.

I can still play baseball though, I just cant watch it be done competitively and have to agree to use the old bat and bases with every opponent I play with.

Yeah, thats lame.

I got till friday at 9pm to decide if I want to sell, my LGS is doing an auction this weekend.

If not for bad luck.... I'd have none at all.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 02:53

The jinking thing is a hit. That said, shadowfields got better, lances got better against Necrons, skimmers can jink versus blasts that didn't specifically target them.

But other armies, particularly Marines, got all sorts of shenanigans taken away from them. Librarius got nerfed, as did psychic spam in general. Units can only use a single grenade in the assault phase (so the Wych treatment is now universal). Flying Monstrous Creatures lose cover saves, and can't vector strike while jinking. Number of relics is limited to one except when explicitly stated otherwise, so no more Burning Blade/Shield Eternal combos. Gargantuan creatures can't toe into cover anymore. No more battle brother drop pod shenanigans. Necrons in Ghost Arks will also be snap shooting because of jinking.

I think it's possible that we may have actually come out ahead here.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 03:14

@Calyptra wrote:
The jinking thing is a hit. That said, shadowfields got better, lances got better against Necrons, skimmers can jink versus blasts that didn't specifically target them.

But other armies, particularly Marines, got all sorts of shenanigans taken away from them. Librarius got nerfed, as did psychic spam in general. Units can only use a single grenade in the assault phase (so the Wych treatment is now universal). Flying Monstrous Creatures lose cover saves, and can't vector strike while jinking. Number of relics is limited to one except when explicitly stated otherwise, so no more Burning Blade/Shield Eternal combos. Gargantuan creatures can't toe into cover anymore. No more battle brother drop pod shenanigans. Necrons in Ghost Arks will also be snap shooting because of jinking.

I think it's possible that we may have actually come out ahead here.

Hey, hey, hey, we were having a great pity party until you stepped in with your bright outlook. jocolor
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 03:27

Yeah negativity only please.  We are sharpening pitch forks. =) /s

but yeah man most of the stuff you listed affects us too.  Now you might as well jink if you move more than 6" because even though we are fast they snapfire anyways.  But our skimmers were only really good because of what we were able to put in them, which isnt allowed anymore.

time will tell,  but trying to use us, the customers, as your proof readers is a dirty move GW.  

Anywho, back to lighting my torch as I go to join the unruly anti FAQ mob.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 05:53

@WhysoSully wrote:
but yeah man most of the stuff you listed affects us too.

I don't see anything in Calyptra's list (which are some pretty profound FAQ changes) which affects us at all, except for the changes to battle brothers embarking in allied transports, which hurts marine lists a lot more than us now that they can't loan out drop pods to literally ANY other imperial army.

We can still always choose to simply WWP an Archon in on foot with things like Fire Dragons/Wraithguard/Freakshow bomb etc. With the proposed changes to Jink, it's less likely we'd be fielding these units in Raiders anyway.

@WhysoSully wrote:
But our skimmers were only really good because of what we were able to put in them, which isnt allowed anymore.

I don't know, I find my skimmers (Venoms) do most of the heavy lifting when I include them, as they're shooty and mobile. They're basically a mandatory buy for every single unit of Kabalites that a Dark Eldar player buys, and are also popular choices for things like Incubi, Trueborn, Courts. They even find their way into lists as empty fast attack venoms purely for cheap target saturation and raw firepower.

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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 06:01

I did notice Freakshows are going to take it up the pooper since MoS and AoM don't project out of vehicles anymore.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 06:58

Not too long ago, it seemed like at least some people on this forum were of the opinion that you should never - or almost never - jink.

I'm not suggesting that they were right or wrong, just that they were here, and saying that.

It does imply to me that passengers shooting normally from jinking transports may not be an essential linchpin for our army to function.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 07:06

Whats the bloody point in night shield upgrade then ? Thats one more hit, one less function. And a deranged one at that, it would at least need errata not a faq to adress that, dont see how this is connected to actual wordoing in the book.

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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 07:14

@Azdrubael wrote:
Whats the bloody point in night shield upgrade then ? Thats one more hit, one less function. And a deranged one at that, it would at least need errata not a faq to adress that, dont see how this is connected to actual wordoing in the book.

The point of night shields is that you use them to put your raider in sufficient cover and get a 3+ cover save, or you screen  your raider with another vehicle, and get a 4+ cover save.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: NEW (First Draft FAQs!   Thu May 05 2016, 07:23

As I recall, night shields were declared over-costed and useless.

All I'm saying is that while losing effective shooting from passengers on jinking vehicles hurts, not everyone was jinking anyway, so it probably wasn't the single rule keeping the sky from falling. And again, most other armies got hurt worse than we did.

Seriously, there's so much delicious Marines player tears flowing out there right now.

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