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 [1850] DE/Eldar list

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zenn
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PostSubject: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Tue May 03 2016, 05:46


I've been out of the hobby for quite sometime and just now getting back into it.  I've always loved both the Eldar and Dark models, so I figure I could take a lot of my favorite models from both sides and still be competitive.  This is what I've come up with so far:

DE:

Archon - wwp

5 warriors
Venom - 2 SC
5 warriors
Venom - 2 SC

Venom - 2 SC
Venom - 2 SC

Eldar:

Autarch - Hawk wings, banshee mask, Fusion gun

5 Wraithguard - cannons

3 Scatbikes
3 Scatbikes
3 Scatbikes

Crimson Hunter

Wraithlord - Brightlance, glaive

Wraithknight - Suncannon and shield

Aspect Host:

5 Fire dragons w/ Exarch
4 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch
6 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch


That totals to 1859 right now, so I've got to trim down a tiny bit.  I'm not sure what my current meta is, so I am hoping to create a list that can take on just about anything.

A few ideas i've been playing around with:

-Dropping the Aurtach for a bike farseer
-Dropping the crimson hunter for a razorwing, or something else entirely
-Dropping the Archon for a lhamean and a raider for the wraithguard.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Tue May 03 2016, 18:36

First off, welcome to The Dark City! Getting right into it....

Ok, here are the problems I see:

1. Your autarch is kitted to be great at assault with an 18" move and a banshee mask, but has no CC weapon. I'd give him either a power lance or the shard of anaris.
2. The wraithguard don't have D-scythes, which are MORE than worth it due to being able to hit multiple infantry, and autohitting everything else, even with the -1 to the D-chart. You can take most of the luck out of it by taking D-scythes, especially if you're deep striking them with the WWP.
3. Your wraithknight didn't take a D weapon. You get D-cannons for free, or you can upgrade to a d sword and scattershield for free. While, on most platforms, a suncannon would be great, I don't recommend trading D weapons for it.
4. Your dark reapers don't have starshot missiles. For 8 points each, they'll be able to fire 5 S8 AP3 shots per round at 48 inches that reroll to pen against zooming, swooping, or turbo boosting targets and ignoring jink saves. You want these.
5. You're spending 95 points on an archon with no weapons, or any other use once he lands. Maybe consider giving him the armour of misery and an agonizer to help get them out of CC. Wraithguard aren't really great in CC once a unit manages to get past the 5d3 wall of death attacks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In order to facilitate changing these things, I'd drop the wraithlord. That gives you 136 points available after fixing your points overrage. This is how I'd spend those points:

-15 power lance on Autarch
-50 d-scythes on wraithguard
-0  d-cannons on wraithknight
-32 starshot missiles on dark reapers
-35 agonizer, haywire grenade, and parasite's kiss on Archon

If all your math was correct, my suggested changes would put you at 1846 points spent.

Good luck, glad you've come back to the hobby, and let us know what you decide, and how you do! Very Happy

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zenn
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Tue May 03 2016, 19:44

Awesome, thanks so much for the quick feedback.

I really love the wraithlord model, but it definitely feels like the weak link of the list. I figured he might have to get dropped.

Question about cannons vs D-scythes on the wraithguard. From what I understand, when the archon + guard come in with the WWP, the archon gets set up in the middle with the guard circled around him. When they fire their weapons, they cannot be fired if they hit in any friendly units. So I am wondering if the way they get deployed affects their effectiveness with scythes on the turn they come in at all, or if that isn't really in issue.

Right now I am planning on just having the autarch zooming around with the hawks and probably not really assaulting a whole lot. Would it be better to just drop the banshee mask and just keep them out of combat whenever possible? I'm also starting to think that the bike farseer might be the better choice.

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Tue May 03 2016, 19:57

@zenn wrote:

Question about cannons vs D-scythes on the wraithguard.   From what I understand, when the archon + guard come in with the WWP, the archon gets set up in the middle with the guard circled around him.  When they fire their weapons, they cannot be fired if they hit in any friendly units.  So I am wondering if the way they get deployed affects their effectiveness with scythes on the turn they come in at all, or if that isn't really in issue.  


Yes that is right but if you place them right you should be able to get at least 3 of them to hit. If you only hit 2 models then that is 1 more then the Dcannons would have given you. But if you hit 5 models, that is 10 more models you are hitting. All with D Weapons - 1.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Tue May 03 2016, 21:03

@zenn wrote:

Question about cannons vs D-scythes on the wraithguard.   From what I understand, when the archon + guard come in with the WWP, the archon gets set up in the middle with the guard circled around him.  When they fire their weapons, they cannot be fired if they hit in any friendly units.  So I am wondering if the way they get deployed affects their effectiveness with scythes on the turn they come in at all, or if that isn't really in issue.

As MrMagoo has said, you should be able to auto-hit with 3 of them on a single unit, and because they're templates, against any unit that consists of more than a single model, you'll ALWAYS score more hits than the non D-scythes would. Against large single targets like wraithknights or tanks, it will score 3 hits ALWAYS, instead of 0-5 hits that the guns would hit. It's just far more reliable, and gives them "wall of death" against units that want to charge them, where they automatically hit attackers 5d3 times with D weapons in overwatch.

Further, because of how the template rules are worded, whichever templates you CAN'T hit your primary target with, you can aim at a different unit. You may get some resistance to using this tactic because it rarely comes up in other armies, but if you look at the rules for using template weapons, it's quite clear that you can hit other units as long as you hit as many units from your primary target as possible without hitting any friendly models.
 
@zenn wrote:

Right now I am planning on just having the autarch zooming around with the hawks and probably not really assaulting a whole lot.  Would it be better to just drop the banshee mask and just keep them out of combat whenever possible?  I'm also starting to think that the bike farseer might be the better choice.

I actually thought about suggesting dropping the mask so that you could afford armour of misery on the archon in my first writeup, but I decided against it BECAUSE I thought you'd put the autarch with the swooping hawks. The swooping hawks are one of the best anti-tank units in the game, because they can move 18" in the movement phase, then charge up to 12" more with fleet, using their haywire grenades in melee against vehicles. The banshee mask will stop the passengers of transports from frying your hawks when they try to use said grenades, so I'd probably keep it.

Wink

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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Wed May 04 2016, 04:57

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
2. The wraithguard don't have D-scythes, which are MORE than worth it due to being able to hit multiple infantry, and autohitting everything else, even with the -1 to the D-chart.

Out of curiosity, are there any practical situations the stock D Cannons are a 'better' choice ? I'm in the process of creating some Wraithguard myself, so I ask purely so I know if it's worth magnetising the weapons or not.

I am well aware that in most instances the D Flamers are vastly better - but I was thinking that if I one day planned to field a unit purely to counter Super Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures, well, then the regular D Cannons might be a decent choice, and is at least 50pts cheaper too.

What do you reckon?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Wed May 04 2016, 16:59

I was theorycrafting with a friend of mine who's pretty intelligent, and he seems to think so for specifically the reasons you're quoting. In non-ITC tournament formats, where you're able to get a natural "6" on the D table using ranged D fire, it's the only way for ranged D to ignore invulnerable saves.

In ITC formats, you can't score a "6" with ranged weapons, so the sole benefit of keeping the D cannons is taken away.

That said, it is my opinion that unless the invuln saves you're attempting to nullify are better than 4+, it's probably better to take the scythes, since the D-scythes automatically ignore all armour and cover, while the base guns only ignore cover on a 6.

As for magnetizing, I'd say it's worth it. In formats that allow full ranged D, there are times when the potential for avoiding all saves is worth it, especially when it causes a minimum of 7 unsaveable wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Wed May 04 2016, 19:55

That's all super useful information to know.  I might go the magnetizing route for my wraithguard just in case the situation calls for one over the other.  But probably stick with the scythes most of the time.

So, about the farseer vs the Aurtach.  It feels like the prime benefit of the Aurtach is that he adds a bit more punch to the swooping hawks and allows a bit of leeway with my reserve rolls.  Whereas the farseer can do lots of buffing for whichever unit needs it.  Farseer also gives me more defensive capabilities vs opponents psychic powers.  Is this another situation where I should just get both models and take one or the other depending on who I am facing, or is one clearly going to outshine the other?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Thu May 05 2016, 01:48

I believe that most of the time, one either needs to commit to the psychic phase and get multiple psykers, or not really worry abou them much. The problem with taking 1 psyker is that when you end up facing a psyker-heavy army, it potentially doesn't do much for you at all, while still costing 100 points.

However, there IS the fact that it makes you a LITTLE more psychically defensive against those armies, potentially able to stop 1 of their important powers. It's up to you. In this particular list, I personally like the Autarch, since you don't really have a lot of potential buff targets, except maybe the wraithknight or some scatterbikes.

Most of your other units are all already BS5, so guide or prescience wouldn't help them a ton. Hmm...I just noticed that you may not have upgraded your crimson hunter. You really should.

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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Thu May 05 2016, 02:55

From my experiences it is always the right idea to magnetize. Not only because you can switch weapons, but also because you can paint a lot easier without the weapon always on. You never know. They might nerf the tamplate so much that the standard D becomes the only choice worth it... Its basically a gamble on only needing the one weapon or having to buy more should you be wrong.

Magnets are super cheap on ebay too. I suggest |2mm by 1mm|, |3mm by 1mm| and |4 mm by 1 mm|. These will give you the right magnet for almost any situation. 100 of each shouldnt cost you more than $5-10 either.

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zenn
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Thu May 05 2016, 18:23

So with the FAQ, it seems like the swooping hawks took a big hit. I might replace them with a different aspect host, not sure what yet.

But the bigger issue to me seems is the no deploying in allied transports, does that entirely kill my venoms for my aspect warriors or just make it a slightly worse? If it kills it, I might just have to scrap the whole thing and try to come up with something entirely different, maybe freakshow.
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PostSubject: Re: [1850] DE/Eldar list   Thu May 05 2016, 18:55

You could still deploy them next to the venom and then have them jump in first turn.
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