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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 14:35

This snippet of information comes from Gotthammer of the BOLS Lounge, from his blog.

Gotthammer wrote:
Phil commented he would change the Court of the Archon and Dias of Destruction if he could in Codex Dark Eldar. The Court was at one point planned for a boxed set so you'd have to buy one of each so it made sense to have it that way. The Dias was a last minute job, and needed more tweaking.
He also mentioned changing the Decapitator and making some units better and some worse, but no specifics on why.

And what does this mean for us? Well everyone thinks the Court are underpowered and the Dais (why can nobodyyyy ever spell that correctly?) is over costed and he has obviously seen the internet hate for the Decapitator. I'd imagine they'd be loathe to release Decapitator if they knew the model would only sell to kids and painters.

So, when would you say we could see such changes? GW don't like to errata codex entries in an FAQ and have started to use WD to bring new and updated rules to the table. There is a small chance we could get a 2nd edition codex and of course it just might never happen. I'd place my bets on it being part of the rumoured mega FAQ for 6th edition. People forget that Dark Eldar are one massive experiment, the way they have released things is new and I'd expect them to try new things.

Finally, units to get better and worse....

Mandrakes and Decapitator are obvious. What do you think is actually overpowered and undercosted in the codex, what would you be happy with?

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 15:08

I dont want any changes because with my luck he would fudge up all the units I run. Im fine with mandrakes being complete crap and who would honestly run the dias anyway its an overcosted ravager and unless they add a ton of stuff to it its just not worth it. hmm on second thought Maybe making drahzar a unit upgrade for incubi at 150 points like yarick for space wolves, or just outright killing drahzar and letting my archon take his 2+ armor yeah i like that idea. Quick someone go cut of phil kellys hands before he can get to are almost perfect codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 15:09

Stuff lie the court being 1-x per model could be corrected in an FAQ (just say there was an error in the codex and it shoudl read 0-x). Any big changes would probably happen in the rumoured FAQs to bring all codices in line with 6th edition rules, altough I doubt they start massively changing units there (I'm mostly hoping Voidlances become Lance 3).

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 17:25

Overpowered? I was just involved in a discussion on Dakka where the general consensus is that the DE codex isn't overpowered and is about as nicely balanced as one could expect.

Okay, well, let's consider the question - what things in the DE Dex are 'too good'?

Trueborn? Though I think they are pretty functionally balanced when you consider what HWS, Long Fangs, Havocs are all about, but probably if I had to point at something this would be my first thought...I hope he doesn't nerf them though without giving us...I dunno, better lances or something, because that would be a *giant* blow in competitive play.

Baron Sathypants - though he has very limited uses, his basic cost is perhaps questionable. If you consider his stat line and wargear...hmmm. Even if you think his stats are just worth around 50 points (a Haem's cost...and he's better than that) then add in his wargear, you're paying pretty much nothing for him to be made jump infantry who modifies one of the most important rolls in the game.

Maybe Beasts? Though they really only hit their stride paired with Sathypants...eh...

Maybe make Flickerfield a cover save and not an invulnerable save - if nothing else it would make more sense within the scop of the rules, though (sadly) would greatly depower the effect.


That's...that's about all I can come up with, and I feel kind of pained doing it. I'm actually kind of nervous about the whole discussion speaking from a competitive standpoint. I love that DE are a low tier competitive dex, that *can* beat top tier armies, but that victory is balanced on a razor's edge - it's not like we're eating face at tournaments with lists any semi-talented player could win with (*cough*Blood Angels*cough*). So to hear comments about making some units weaker...egads.

If he makes, say, Trueborn and Sathy weaker somehow (and, let's be clear, other than his +1 effect, it's not like Sathy is really that good - he's just got a cool +1 effect) and makes, say Mandrakes, The Dais, and...I dunno, The Court "better" in exchange?

Let me tell you - the "better" would have to be *waaay* more than just letting the Court be 0-X because even with that the Court would still be pretty weaksauce, the Lhamean would still be functionally useless, the Ur-Ghul would still be a weaker Wych (and yet still one of the better buys...)

I guess what I'm saying is, my fear is any possible changes would nerf our ability to play as a contender in competitive play - hurting players who play for competitiveness.

While making the codex, in general, a bit more playable - helping us in friendly play, where there isn't much of an issue anyway.

My fears, and thoughts on what is maybe overpowered,
Thor.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 18:18

Oh, FAQ-upgrade isn't possible?
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620223a_Black_Templars_Version_1_1.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1930207a_Blood_Angels_Version_1_2.pdf



Anyway I hope Harlequins from new Codex: Eldar DO get boost and we'll get the share too.

Decapitator should be Mandrake upgrade character like Snikrot, period. Pain Token for shooting, "uber ninja'd" deployment... yes, this would be worth double cost of Marbo (who is crappy character, but IMHO better than poor Deck due to Demo Charges). Maybe also ability to buy pain token for Nightfiend, for example for 25 points. Imagine what it would be if they would have PT on turn 0, then got second on turn 1 and assault? S4+1, I5+1? Smile

I would also reprice Dark Lances - Yes, they have range but also are Heavy. Scourges got them in "desired" price, so let's just say that was "copied typo" in two similar entries. Also 1 Blaster/Shredder per 5 Warriors, that would make foot Kabal armies somehow more realistic choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 20:09

Wouldnt it be something thou if they ignored DE for 13 years, finally gave them a nice new shiny codex that we all like then lilttle less then a year later they ruin the army? I have a better idea how about looking at that flaming turd that is nids so my LGS can actually move some bugs off the shelf and leave DE alone

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 20:39

I think there are some problems that should be changed, some that might and some problems will vanish, when the 6th edition comes out.
I'll start on top and work through the army list.

Army wide special rules:
Sharing the pain:
Add "Models with the Altered Physique Special rule may never have less Pain Tokens than the one they started with." to the end of the description.
I know, most people will dissent, but to me it just feels wrong, that a Haemonculus has a rule, that says he is so twisted, that he always has a pain token, but can 'loose' it by walking next to other Dark Eldar.


HQ:
Asrubal Vect:
The Dais of Destruction should be able to take all Raider/Ravager upgrades, maybe get a flickerfield for free and have the Aerial Assault special rule.

Drazhar:
Should have an invul. save, like Dodge (4+), should be able to either take one unit of Incubi as retinue or to make one unit of Incubi troops.
Additionally, like Incubi he should have a wargear entry like:
"Tormentor: Models with a Tormentor count as equipped with assault grenades."

Keradruakh:
Should be and IC that can only join Mandrakes and/or be able to assault after popping up.

Court:
Change unit composition to 0-X.
Lhameans:
Should give their upgrade to all squad members, maybe one improves to 3+ and two improve to 2+. Maybe even improve non poison weapons to 5+ and 4+.
BTW, agonisers should count as poison weapons.

Elites:
Incubi:
Should have a wargear item like:
"Tormentor: Models with a Tormentor count as equipped with assault grenades."

Grotesques:
Should have a special rule like:
"Raging Behemoth: All close combat attacks made by Grotesques have the rending abbility."

Wracks:
Change: "The Acothyst may take one of the following:" to "The Acothyst may replace both his poisoned weapons with a close combat weapon and one of the following:"

Mandrakes:
Evil looking blades should be rending weapons, to give them a chance to actually finish a MEQ unit they charge.
Nightfiends will likely get an upgrade with the new squad leader system in 6th edition, but at the moment they are just useless.

Harlequins:
They are ok, but have to much competition in the Elite foc, hopefully they will get an upgrade with the new Eldar codex that will trickle through to us.

Hekatrix Bloodbrides:
Definitely need a boost, to compete against other elites, but I don't know what, maybe something like
this, but I think they deserve something more unique.

Wargear:
Agoniser:
Should be a poison weapon.

Dark Lance
May cost 15 points for all units, that can take them.

Phantasm Grenade Launcher:
Add "A Phantasm Grenade Launcher can't be used to attack vehicles." to the end of the description.
Maybe I'm too much of a nitpicker here, but I always thought it was hillarious that a whole unit would stand next to a vehicle and fan psychotropic gas from the PGL onto the vehicles hull. And even moreso, that this might lead to a weapon falling off.

I think that's all, but probably only a fraction of this will be FAQed.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 20:55

And everything you list is an upgrade in potential power besides the Pain Token and the PGL thing. Wink (I agree with the PGL just for a fluff consideration, but I don't see any intrinsic issues with other DE feeding off the agony available from their fellows, a Haem getting Wyches 'in the mood' seems quite fluffy.)

Also, no issue with the invulnerable armor save on a vehicle?

I stand by my mystified concern with what they think is too powerful in the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 20:59

I guess additional edge in ramming/CC seems pretty ok for most people Wink

But indeed description describle it more like an optical effect, not shield...

Similar with Shock Prow, it suppose to work vs. infantry (ie. this d3 armour bonus).

@Tiri Rana
Sadly, Tormentor helmets are gone (I liked this "Evil Striking Scorpion" theme) but PGL on Klaivex would be ok...
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 21:32

Guns on hats, guns on hats, the dream doesn't have to die!

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 22:44

Decapitator needs to be able to assault after deep striking

Mandrakes need to be able to shoot from the get go and be rending when they have a pain token.

dais needs a boost or a point reduction.

Drahizar needs about 20pts shaved off, lelith 15
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Sun Oct 02 2011, 22:55

Quote :
Guns on hats, guns on hats, the dream doesn't have to die!

Concept is awesome

but it would literally break Your neck without recoil mechanism (and DoW teach us thet even Laspistols have enormous recoil Razz).

I would like to see them wielding shotguns with PW sword edges.


But overall Incubi are good (I would say propertly made MegaNobz due to small choice of upgrades). Except their flamer. If it would be AP2... it could cost 20 points, don't care.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 00:04

@Thor665 wrote:
Guns on hats, guns on hats, the dream doesn't have to die!

That's my quote of the week. I'd say that if GW carry on their retro design stance for the next decade then we could see the Incubi reimagined back into their previous incarnation when the next codex one day arrives.

As far as overpowered and undercosted goes then the Baron sure gets my vote.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 01:29

@Tiri Rana wrote:


Court:
Change unit composition to 0-X.
Lhameans:
Should give their upgrade to all squad members, maybe one improves to 3+ and two improve to 2+. Maybe even improve non poison weapons to 5+ and 4+.
BTW, agonisers should count as poison weapons.


Make her cost a bit more and make her and the bosses weapons all poison 2+ in addition to what they already do while she is alive. A huskblade that wounds a 2+ Yes please... However you then have to keep a fairly weak model alive and fits with the whole sharp blade that can easily be blunted theme the Dark Eldar have going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 01:37

I love the idea of husk blades wounding on 2 but good god man that is rediculously broken.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 02:12

For 35 (well, 55) points, with S3-4-5?
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 05:49

I'll echo the fact that the agonizer should have been poisoned to begin with. It functions exactly like a poisoned weapon, so what gives?

the other thing is the phantasm grenades. Functions exactly like a vanilla assault and defensive grenade? Why? This is Dark Eldar we're talking about. Those grenades should have a special rule stating something along the lines of "even just one whiff fills the enemy's mind with horrors beyond comprehension" and a leadership test should be taken. And if that test is failed, the enemy model can't attack back.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 06:05

The agoniser is described as a weapon that causes effects to the nerves. Kinda in between a taser and a dalek ray gun. The electrocorrosive whip is described as venom soaked. I would be happier if Lhamaeans improved elecrocorrosive whip, and left agoniser alone, or if archons could take flesh gauntlets or scissor hands. Then with no court agoniser, Djinn, or huskblade on archon. With a court other weapons would become more viable. They are fine now, so maybe best to leave alone.

court o-x would be great. I plan to take them in fun games as they are now anyway though.

The incubi have tormentors (not the old helms) in background, but not in rules. Counting these as offensive grenades would be good, adding 2pts to incubi. Maybe +4 points, since people seem to e willing to spend more for grenades for small unit with phantasm.

Letting wrack acothyst swap a poison blade for ccw for free, would prevent it losing 2ccw when it takes an upgrade. The wracks are fine now, I just don't take any close combat upgrades on acothyst, he keeps his attacks with hexrifle

Drazhar was an upgrade character in old codex, maybe make him one again, dodge save makes sense. Maybe fix him and phoenix lords at once.

Letting Keradruakh, join a unit of mandrakes would be enough fix for me to take him and 10 mandrakes.

Dais would be fine with aerial assault and the option to take raider upgrades. Alternatively, give it flicker field, night shield and maybe some others and raise cost to match, instead of allowing raider options. Last game I took it, every other vehicle had flicker field and night shields, vect's ride was rather un-pimped.

Something done to Blood brides would be good, rule that makes all there attacks rending for higher base pts would be cool. kinda mirrors lilith's all weapons ignore armour rule. A close combat build for true born would be great, let them take venom blades like they can shardcarbines, and add somekind of power weapon to one of the so many per unit weapon lists. Then some people would take melee-born.

Void mine needs something, I take void ravens and don't bother dropping it. Its good enough to take ignoring mine, so not concerned.

Harlequins should be able to take venom, in craftworld codex as well. It was there vehicle first after all.

I'm not sure what is overpowered in codex, maybe razorwings? They seem to inflict a lot of damage. I don't use trueborn or venom spam so I have no idea on those. My lists use wychs and razorwings as main offense, with some reaver, scourges, and coven in supporting roles. Nothing seems over powered.

Codex seems balanced to me, some options are rarely taken may need small boost so lists have more variety, but none of the foc slots lack a couple good choices.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 07:08

@Thor665 wrote:
Overpowered? I was just involved in a discussion on Dakka where the general consensus is that the DE codex isn't overpowered and is about as nicely balanced as one could expect.

I guess what I'm saying is, my fear is any possible changes would nerf our ability to play as a contender in competitive play - hurting players who play for competitiveness.

While making the codex, in general, a bit more playable - helping us in friendly play, where there isn't much of an issue anyway.

I would agree with Thor's sentiments 100%. If anything, leave this codex the hell alone and work on bringing the others up to it's standards. I don't think we are over-powered, I think perhaps the perception stems more from us not being quite as fragile as we used to be.

A small number of changes I might suggest to tidy things up:

The missiles on the Voidraven should be the same cost as on the RW.

Void Mine = large blast. Seriously, your biggest toy has a one-shot that's small blast?

Cheaper Dais with Aerial Assault, at minimum.

Decapitator can assault on arrival using his Shade Stalker rule. [and accompanying Mandrakes?]

Harlies in Venoms, even if you need or want to do it, should have the option at least.

@abjectus wrote:
I'm not sure what is overpowered in codex, maybe razorwings?

I think they might be the obvious target, based purely on opponents' reactions. But I don't believe for a minute that they actually are overpowered when you look at the various toys the Imperium gets. And don't forget their AV10!

One new thing I might suggest?

Wracks in a Raider can swap the vehicle gun for a twin-linked liquifier that works the same as the Warp Hunter's Aether-rift (and IG's ???), a template weapon that is placed up to 6" from the weapon's muzzle and pointed in any direction.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 09:48

Liquifier raider (or venom) would be cool. I only listed razorwing as its strongest thing I could think of. I think it is fine, other players don't care for it when I unload 12 missiles them turn 1, but imperial does have nasty stuff too.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 13:18

First of all I think every codex has some useless squads of ICs in them. It is part of the balancing of the Codex itself. I think they are put in the Codex for Fluff players. This allows for those unique builds that you only see once in your life time at a tournament.

The one Armory selection that I would like to see reintroduced is the Horrofex. I miss this weapon. It was so useful and demoralizing that when my opponents were faced with a weapon destroyed option on one of my raiders, they would always chose the Horrofex over a Dark Lance or Disintegrator. Imaging this gear on Venoms, you could Freeze tag a whole foot slogging army every turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 16:15

Quote :
The one Armory selection that I would like to see reintroduced is the Horrofex. I miss this weapon. It was so useful and demoralizing that when my opponents were faced with a weapon destroyed option on one of my raiders, they would always chose the Horrofex over a Dark Lance or Disintegrator. Imaging this gear on Venoms, you could Freeze tag a whole foot slogging army every turn.

Whole page of talking and only one person speak truth, I miss my horrorfex so much.
BTH I expected more stuff working with Ld, and PGH should be somthing more than assault/def granades.

I dont feel that any of our forces are overpowered...mabye some IC, maybe.

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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 16:37

@abjectus wrote:
Liquifier raider (or venom) would be cool. I only listed razorwing as its strongest thing I could think of. I think it is fine, other players don't care for it when I unload 12 missiles them turn 1, but imperial does have nasty stuff too.
The Imperial Guard can do this for less points and with better missiles.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 18:37

@GrenAcid wrote:
Quote :
The one Armory selection that I would like to see reintroduced is the Horrofex. I miss this weapon. It was so useful and demoralizing that when my opponents were faced with a weapon destroyed option on one of my raiders, they would always chose the Horrofex over a Dark Lance or Disintegrator. Imaging this gear on Venoms, you could Freeze tag a whole foot slogging army every turn.

Whole page of talking and only one person speak truth, I miss my horrorfex so much.
BTH I expected more stuff working with Ld, and PGH should be somthing more than assault/def granades.

I dont feel that any of our forces are overpowered...mabye some IC, maybe.

You are right about LD war gear. The war gear was the first thing I looked at when the codex dropped. I was under the impression that we were going to get a lot of LD war gear to nullify psychic attacks. I am fine for the most part with the war gear. We should have at least one LD war gear that nullifies psychic attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Phil Kelly at GD OZ, Future changes?   Mon Oct 03 2011, 18:54

Oh, nearly forgot!

I want old Dissies, they were excellent weapons!
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