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 Does it feel like there's something wrong here?

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 08:52

I've played 40k for almost thirty years. I remember when Rouge Trader came out. So, I have seen a lot come and go. But these days I can't see where my beloved game is going.

Last week I looked across the table at a guy who was playing a deathstar of 12 Khorndogs and a bunch of chaos sorcerers on bikes. Fateweaver was back there too. They had almost 30 warp charge dice to throw a turn. They were invisible, had a re-rollable 2+ invul and could make my Dsycthe Wraith Guard shoot at me ~ every turn! It wasn't a game. He was playing by himself and rolling dice as I removed models. And this kind of list isn't rare. 2++ re-rollable saves, free tanks, free demons, moving terrain, no need for LOS, ignore cover, Warp Spiders(!), Scatterbikes(!!), shoot my own guns at me... I'm not just complaining about DE, all of this makes for a horrible game experience.

What happened to this game I love? 40k feels less and less like a game these days and more and more just like play time. I think I am going to get my Dark Eldar fix from Conquest!

RB
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 09:25

I said on another thread that 40K now is what would have been called Apocalypse a few years ago. Apocalypse didn't sell and GW simply added all the elements to 'normal' 40K...and people bought it! It started with the Wraithknight, then the Riptide. Then we had Escalation and Imperial Knights and before you know it we're playing Apocalypse.

The 7e changes really hammered the point home with Unbound armies, the psychic phase etc. There was a brief period when they seemed to want to rein things in a bit (Blood Angel, Dark Eldar and Ork codexes) but then the Necrons hit and codexes started getting ever more powerful. Formations became the norm rather than an addon and now it's frankly ridiculous and it's simply not a version of 40K that I enjoy anymore.

If you're playing one of the favoured factions (Imperium, Necrons, Eldar) against one of the other favoured factions then maybe it's a fun experience. But when you face an army that's almost entirely ObjSec with 500+ points of free stuff and a whole raft of psychic powers that you don't have and can't counter, that outguns, outfights and outmaneuvers you whilst still being orders of magnitude tougher and more resilient than you then I personally don't see that it's much fun anymore.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 10:02

This is where the social contract between two players becomes so important.

I love my games of 40k, I don't see hideous deathstars being teleported across the table, formations my opponents take are proportionate to the fluff of their army and lists rarely qualify as cheesy.

Sure, if you play in the most competitive tournaments then you're going to get that, but quite frankly I think if you enter that sort of tournament then you need to be prepared for what you're going to be facing and thinking you won't see exploitative armies is naive.

I did play a list a couple of weeks ago using Buzzgob's Ork Stompa, which thanks to Forgeworld got my opponent an 800+pt model for around 300, but I had specifically stated I wanted to face a tough list as I'm taking the list I used to a tournament next month, and I still pulled out a draw that should have been a win had I not played like a noob in the last turn.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 10:15

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
This is where the social contract between two players becomes so important.

I agree but when you have to ask your opponent to purposefully gimp his army so that yours has a chance of victory then that's a sure sign of a problem in the game system.

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 11:36

[quote]I said on another thread that 40K now is what would have been called Apocalypse a few years ago.[/quote

Interestingly enough, when allies were included a few editions ago the allies table had named the armies that couldn't play together (Eldar and Daemons for example) as something along the lines of 'come the apocalypse, but not before'. And now, with the state of everything, it really is Apocalypse.

I kind of miss apocalypse. I never played it, but I liked looking at the pictures in White Dwarf.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 12:15

I too miss Apocalypse as a separate game. I always had the option to play Apocalypse if I wanted to. Now, if I want to play 40k at all I am 'forced'* to play Apocalypse.

*Yes, I know I'm not literally forced to but that's what it feels like

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 15:40

@burning eye, I have had conversations with people about "the social contract" between friends. However,if you're only playing people you know, with house rules (or agreements), then that rules out the "pickup game" and any sort of tournament at all. Getting to know new people is a big part of the hobby for me.

Someone that I was talking to said he had a list of armies that he wouldn't play against any more. Up front, he would say, "I'm not playing that list. Sorry". His list grows longer and longer. Another person said I should just play another game. Play Infinity, he said. The thing is that I don't want to play another game. I've been playing 40k for most of my life. I am just extremely frustrated that the rule set is so corroded.

RB
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 16:16

@Rancid blade wrote:
@burning eye, I have had conversations with people about "the social contract" between friends. However,if you're only playing people you know, with house rules (or agreements), then that rules out the "pickup game" and any sort of tournament at all.  Getting to know new people is a big part of the hobby for me.  

Someone that I was talking to said he had a list of armies that he wouldn't play against any more.  Up front, he would say, "I'm not playing that list. Sorry".  His list grows longer and longer.  Another person said I should just play another game.  Play Infinity, he said.  The thing is that I don't want to play another game.  I've been playing 40k for most of my life.  I am just extremely frustrated that the rule set is so corroded.

RB

The social contract shouldn't rule out pickup games, what it does is rule out games with those people who have no understanding of what 'fun' means when two people meet for a game, and insist on building/bringing a list designed to be successful in the competitive arena. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the game rules knows when something appears to be ridiculously good or overpowered, and therefore makes the choice to take those models or that combination anyway, and I would never go into a pickup game bringing the cheesiest combination of units I can think of.

I can quite happily turn up to my club without having discussed the terms of the game I'm going to play with my opponent and know that against the majority of people there I will have a fun game, and so will my opponent. Yes we have the odd player who qualifies as 'that guy' but then they also don't actually own either the game rulebook or their codex, so it's hardly a surprise.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but we each as players have a responsibility to not be 'that guy' when we go into a game - as a DE player that's pretty difficult so we're in a privileged position ( Laughing ). Other players (for example Eldar) have to work pretty hard to not be seen as that guy simply because of the faction they've chosen to play! (As an aside, for years I wanted to do an Eldar jetbike army, and was simply waiting for new jetbike models. Now I put the project aside as jetbike armies are not fun to play against).

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 19:00

I've been playing for roughly 20 years myself and I agree that it feels at least as bad as it's ever been balance wise.  Gargantuans, (scatter)bike armies, decurion shenanigans, tons of free stuff, and now over the top psykers - it's all pretty out of control.  The power creep in general is reminding me of why I (and virtually everyone else) quit WHFB years ago.  Although admittedly they've spread the insanity around a bit more than the did in FB.  Unless they ramp up these large improvements to the more neglected and popular factions, I could see the same thing happening.

In general, I've seen a huge drop off in GW players over the last 6-7 years.  I'd say it was just the age of the people I play with, but that would not entirely explain why they're seeking out alternative games.  Malifaux for example has become quite popular in my area.

Our game group which was 30 strong at one point (and actually a college club) has shrunk down to about 6; and none of us have any compunction to go try to find pick ups or local tournaments.  We've known each other for decades, agree on most rules/issues, and understand that if we only bring a WAAC list to game night - We'll be that guy sitting on the couch watching everyone else have fun.

When I peek in the FLGS (I haven't actually entered one in years) I just see angry neckbeards and teenagers arguing with each other.  It does not look anything like fun.

My friends and I have actually been trying to entice old players back with tabletop simulator, which is occasionally impressive but usually far too much work to set up and use.  I could see it as an alternative to just about any table game, which would solve a lot of our issues with time and resources.  If GW was smart they'd release official add ons or a similar program to let people play tabletop 40k/aos online.  Instead I expect them to eventually sue the developer out of business while gouging more kids for plastic crap.

Found a video showing what a tabletop simulator 40k battle can look like here
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Does it feel like there's something wrong here?   Thu Apr 28 2016, 21:36

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
This is where the social contract between two players becomes so important.

I love my games of 40k, I don't see hideous deathstars being teleported across the table, formations my opponents take are proportionate to the fluff of their army and lists rarely qualify as cheesy.

Sure, if you play in the most competitive tournaments then you're going to get that, but quite frankly I think if you enter that sort of tournament then you need to be prepared for what you're going to be facing and thinking you won't see exploitative armies is naive.

I did play a list a couple of weeks ago using Buzzgob's Ork Stompa, which thanks to Forgeworld got my opponent an 800+pt model for around 300, but I had specifically stated I wanted to face a tough list as I'm taking the list I used to a tournament next month, and I still pulled out a draw that should have been a win had I not played like a noob in the last turn.

I agree that the social contract is a thing and its respect is how you maintain the level of gamingthats right for you. Ideally.

the Reality is that many people have few players who are willing to learn to play and pay for two versions of 40K. Tournament 40K and casual.

some will some wont but as soon as you start to enforce the social contract, the smaller the player pool for you becomes. and maybe that is 100% okay, but it is true.

I personally have always played the unusual stuff, as my blog will attest, and have by and large limited these crazy add ons in tournaments I run and that has allowed me a pretty broad lattitude in affecting the local meta. if you truly want more control over that and want more players to tplay with, become an organizing force and run events. By running them with slimmed down allowances, you will allow people to actually TRY your version of the social contract and not feel disadvantaged or like they are only doing it for you. Knowing that everyone will be playing by the same rules relaxes people about having to modify their list and they know ahead of time so its not a table time discussion.

Become an organizing force. That's what i did and i affected the meta significantly by doing it. we tend to have FAR more skilled Generals around where I play because when they go outside and play at other events, no holds barred, they are three times the general these guys are who are relying purely o ntheir list to win.

I never mind losing as long as it was a game but from the sounds of the original poster telling it, he was just a spectator and that is when you have to have a reasonable discussion with the guy and just say "Hey i think my collection just isnt ready for that so ca nwe just dump those powers and play X and Y instead". He probably will be willing as long as it doesnt sound like a sour grapes fest.

And remember too that he may just be having fun experimenting with the new toys. Its natural to want to do it. So my message to the OP is just to become an organizing force and in the meantime talk to the guy and just tell him where you're at.

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