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 Death from the Skies

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Fri May 06 2016, 13:26

So basically, we got more resistant against most flyers!
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 01:46

I guess I am just as in the dark as the rest of you, but perhaps one of you knows what the Blackheart Talon is that I am seeing in the pictures from the book. The Index shows: Razorwing Jetfighter, Voidraven Bomber, Blackheart Talon, Dark Eldar Appendix. Is it the new formation or perhaps a new flyer?
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 01:50

@Sarkesian wrote:
I guess I am just as in the dark as the rest of you, but perhaps one of you knows what the Blackheart Talon is that I am seeing in the pictures from the book. The Index shows: Razorwing Jetfighter, Voidraven Bomber, Blackheart Talon, Dark Eldar Appendix. Is it the new formation or perhaps a new flyer?




Formation =(

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 01:50

Crying or Very sad that is indeed worthy of a sad face!
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 01:59

@WhysoSully wrote:


Formation =(

And it can be YOUR formation for the low, low price of 600 points! Razz
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 02:01

Although it is expensive point and $, the look on your opponents face when you have 4 flyers come on board will be worth it. I'll think about it, but not too hard.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 02:11

@Sarkesian wrote:
Although it is expensive point and $, the look on your opponents face when you have 4 flyers come on board will be worth it. I'll think about it, but not too hard.

The look on my opponent's face? You mean the smirk as he realizes he's about to table you before your flyers ever come on? Very Happy

"Oh, you mean your air superiority rule lowers my reserves rules by -1? Lucky for me, most decent deep strike formations either come on automatically turn 1, or let me choose whether to pass or fail my roll."

Go ahead and give an opponent -5 to his reserves rolls. If he doesn't have reserves, can choose to pass or fail, or arrives automatically on a specific turn, it won't matter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All that said, it's not ALL gloom and doom. The ability to drop bombs on units that are locked in combat could be an interesting tactical option. We could run some suicide wyches or grotesques to lock down high value melee targets like termies for 1 turn, forcing them to pile in and bunch up for the bomb.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 07:56

At times I'm curious if GW has any memory at all.

6th edition (2012) was supposed to convince us all to buy hundreds of dollars worth of shiny new flyers.  Instead, most of us just spent $35 on an aegis defense line and called it a day.  I don't expect this flyer supplement to end up much differently - except of course that most of us already have our anti-air fortifications.  The defense line, comms relay, and quad gun total 120 points and are a pretty decent counter to what people fear from these formations including the reserve manipulation.

The quad gun will be insufficient against an opponent willing to commit a third of their army to flyers but will most likely earn 2-3 times it's points back the moment it fires.  The rest of the defense line is useful though even if your opponent brings no flyers/skimmers.  There are however: cheap, dedicated units like space marine stalkers or craftworld/corsair firestorms which can be added as well.

3 stalkers (which gain ignore cover) for example can fire interceptor at both attack wings and potentially wipe out the 600 point dark eldar formation before its first shooting phase.  2 Firestorms can be about as effective, although they'd have to each be a separate unit to fire at both wings.

If you do take this formation though remember that bombs can be dropped on the turn you arrive and before interceptor fire.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 10:17

@stilgar27 wrote:
At times I'm curious if GW has any memory at all.

6th edition (2012) was supposed to convince us all to buy hundreds of dollars worth of shiny new flyers.  Instead, most of us just spent $35 on an aegis defense line and called it a day.  I don't expect this flyer supplement to end up much differently - except of course that most of us already have our anti-air fortifications.  The defense line, comms relay, and quad gun total 120 points and are a pretty decent counter to what people fear from these formations including the reserve manipulation.

The quad gun will be insufficient against an opponent willing to commit a third of their army to flyers but will most likely earn 2-3 times it's points back the moment it fires.  The rest of the defense line is useful though even if your opponent brings no flyers/skimmers.  There are however: cheap, dedicated units like space marine stalkers or craftworld/corsair firestorms which can be added as well.

3 stalkers (which gain ignore cover) for example can fire interceptor at both attack wings and potentially wipe out the 600 point dark eldar formation before its first shooting phase.  2 Firestorms can be about as effective, although they'd have to each be a separate unit to fire at both wings.

If you do take this formation though remember that bombs can be dropped on the turn you arrive and before interceptor fire.

Can the guardians from a vaul's wrath support battery use the quad gun? We can take quad guns right?

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 10:30

@WhysoSully wrote:
Can the guardians from a vaul's wrath support battery use the quad gun?  We can take quad guns right?

The rule book says that any non-vehicle model can. Artillery models are no exception.
So, in theory, the Support Weapon itself could man the Quad Gun, if it didn't have BS -. Laughing

And yes, although they are designed as Imperial, the fortifications from Stronghold Assault don't belong to any faction and can thus be used by every army.
However, Tau fortifications do count as Tau units.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 16:21

I realize I'm probably de-railing the thread, but if you have craftworld allies anyway - take a minimum unit of dark reapers with an exarch manning the quad gun.  The rest of the reapers don't have skyfire, but have special rules against same targets your quad gun will want to be firing at (which will probably be skimmers as often as they are flyers).  You can choose to set up the wall sections however you like so if you take such a tiny unit you can basically wrap them in cover.

The exarch's fast shot ability means 5 shots out of the quad gun (at BS 5 with interceptor and re-roll).  Each one has about a 7% chance of destroying an av 10 vehicle outright, while just with average shooting should strip more than 3 hull points.   It would be very possible for him to bring down a squad (now we call them attack wings?) of 2 av 10 flyers the turn they come in.

Once again we're talking about roughly 225 points of a versatile counter to a 600 point formation.  
Not to mention 3 dark reapers and a quad gun defense line probably costs less $ than a single flyer, let alone 4.

If you can afford to, or were planning on bring more aspect warriors anyway - 3 units in the aspect host formation gain a further +1 bs and the ability to re-roll failed morale tests.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 17:35

However, you can only take 1 quad gun per CAD, and YMMV, but every time I've played vs. an opponent with an aegis/quad gun, I've lanced/splintered the quad gun into oblivion on turn 1.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 17:39

The Flyer Wings are not unit's though, so all the AA would have to pick on a single flyer at a time. All of the planes operate as independent units, even if they stay in formation.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 21:40

@krayd wrote:
However, you can only take 1 quad gun per CAD, and YMMV, but every time I've played vs. an opponent with an aegis/quad gun, I've lanced/splintered the quad gun into oblivion on turn 1.

I agree that this is smart if you're allowed to do it, but I've seen arguments against this being allowed at all. I can't remember it all off the top of my head, but part of the arguments are based on the fact that a gun emplacement is not an enemy unit(It's neutral with no faction), and therefore it isn't a valid target as outlined in the 40k rulebook.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 22:08

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@krayd wrote:
However, you can only take 1 quad gun per CAD, and YMMV, but every time I've played vs. an opponent with an aegis/quad gun, I've lanced/splintered the quad gun into oblivion on turn 1.

I agree that this is smart if you're allowed to do it, but I've seen arguments against this being allowed at all. I can't remember it all off the top of my head, but part of the arguments are based on the fact that a gun emplacement is not an enemy unit(It's neutral with no faction), and therefore it isn't a valid target as outlined in the 40k rulebook.

I've never seen that one argued before and a simple glance at the rules for gun emplacements seem to answer the query.

Quote :
A gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat. It is hit automatically in close combat and has the following profile...

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 22:24

I always obliterate them as soon as possible. That's an easy First Blood.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 08 2016, 23:38

I've had the 'not technically an enemy unit' played on me to deny first blood, but never to stop me from attacking it...

Once I saw how easy it was to frag them my enthusiasm for ever taking one evaporated rather quickly!
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 00:50

I think the question of the quad gun is actually whether it constitutes a "unit" at all.   No doubt that you can target and destroy them, only whether they qualify for first blood or victory points.  Then there is the confusion regarding emplaced vs emplacements...

I'm really not trying to start a debate here - it's been discussed in great detail in threads like this.

As for my previous post - I wrongly assumed that wings functioned like squads within the formations.  After re-reading the deployment section I realized (Besides squad coherency) there is no restrictions on them at all.  This would diminish the effect of the single quad gun against large formations, but do much less against formations that are made up of multiple AA squads or have split fire rules.  The space marine anti-air defense force for example, could still fire on up to 3 flyers a turn.

The assertion that only 1 quad gun can be fielded per CAD is wrong though.  Fortifications can basically be taken in formations.  So the imperial strong-point for example would allow for as many as 10 quad guns to be fielded in a single CAD.  Not that this would be wise in any situation - but it's very possible to scale up anti air fortifications to counter larger flyer formations.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Mon May 09 2016, 04:15; edited 1 time in total
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 03:50

So taking a wing counts as 1 fast attack slot? or does it count at 1 formation?

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 04:01

A bit hard to read but the third image explains flyer wings.  

http://www.miniwars.eu/2016/05/imagenes-death-from-skies.html

The way I read it, the flyer wing is it's own formation (so it doesn't eat up any slots), with it's own bonuses and basically gains all the benefits of a vehicle squadron with none of the downsides.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 06:10

@stilgar27 wrote:


The assertion that only 1 quad gun can be fielded per CAD is wrong though.  Fortifications can basically be taken in formations.  So the imperial strong-point for example would allow for as many as 10 quad guns to be fielded in a single CAD.  Not that this would be wise in any situation - but it's very possible to scale up anti air fortifications to counter larger flyer formations.

If it's a formation, then it's outside the CAD. The CAD has room for 1 fortification. Just like taking a corpsethief claw doesn't count as part of any CAD that you might also take in your list.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 06:21

The reason I ask is because most leagues and tournaments by me have 3 formation limit. Using 1/3 of your formations on just flyers could limit things

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 07:11

@stilgar27 wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I always obliterate them as soon as possible.  That's an easy First Blood.

I think the question of the quad gun is actually whether it constitutes a "unit" at all.   No doubt that you can target and destroy them, only whether they qualify for first blood or victory points.

A quad gun does indeed not count for that. The Aegis Defense Line is technically a unit and the gun is just one model that is part of it. Destroying the gun does not mean you destroyed the entire fortification; it's pretty much as if you had caused a "Weapon Destroyed" result.

And while you can score First Blood by destroying a building that is part of your opponent's army, an Aegis Defense Line couldn't count for that anyway because it's a piece of terrain, not a destructable building. You can destroy the gun, but not kill the whole "unit".
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 07:22

But the rest of the aegis can't be targeted so it would be silly to say that you'd have to destroy that too to gain first blood.
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 09 2016, 13:12

Anyone knows if the Void Mine profile is changed?
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