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 Death from the Skies

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 20:19

I'm curious, from the good players (meaning anyone that isn't me) how badly do you think this will effect skimmer heavy armies. As Fighters don't take a penalty when attacking skimmers and depending on how they do the stats will we pretty much be unaffected by this or did we get another nerf to our paper transports?
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 21:17

Yeah I really hope they dont make our skimmers WORSE. If you'd have said that 2 weeks ago I would have said its impossible! but now... I dont know...

At least at the core its not really making skimmers worse, its just not nerfing flyers as much against them. Shouldnt by any more effective than before right?

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 21:23

Just another nail in the coffin but honestly I think the 7th edition change to skyfire was more of a blow than this will be.  Nothing like an opponent blowing up your flyer before it comes in with a stalker then realizing he has nothing left to shoot at... except every other vehicle you have.

I wouldn't mind it so much if they gave skimmers skyfire or just any bonus to shooting at flyers.

Interceptors probably won't be all that common, and even if they are it's only a -1 BS penalty vs ground units?  Most space marine flyers have a crap load of twin linked weapons so not having skyfire only hurts them about half as much. The stormraven for example which can have 4 twin linked weapons (more or less depending on how you consider hurricane bolters) , power of the machine spirit (so it can fire a 5th weapon), hover, and can get strafing run through a pretty decent formation.

Those bonuses and the mostly twin linked fire means that the for the two most common flyers I see - storm ravens and storm talons, the penalties won't be that noticeable.  If it weren't for the reserve roll shenanigans I'd see no reason to ever field flyers, and would focus points into quad guns or an anti air tank instead (hydra, stalker, firestorm).


Last edited by stilgar27 on 2/5/2016, 21:52; edited 1 time in total
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 21:35

@stilgar27 wrote:

I wouldn't mind it so much if they gave skimmers skyfire or just any bonus to shooting at flyers.

Now that I think of it, if skimmers and jet bikes are appropriate targets then the reverse must also be true.

Then again, it would probably be more of a buff to SM than a buff to us >.<

Seeing as we literally rain death from above with our deepstriking skimmers you would think they would have SOMETHING special other than getting +2 on the penetration chart when they are hit by enemies lmao.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 21:43

Well, gaining air superiority (via 1 detachment of 2 razorwings) would seem to make null deployment via deepstriking most/all of your skimmers a much more reliable tactic. +2 to reserves is a huge help.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 21:54

Yeah well, 2 Razorwings + Scalpel Squadron is like a go to Null Deployment template. They are above mediocre and not too bad for their points. And they really provide reliable null deployment with bonuses to reserve.

I mean this can be enabler to our load of deepstrike options.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 22:08

How is air superiority going to work?

I thought that was only for when your opponent doesnt bring air and the bonus to reserves was just for your air (not for everything) aka, if your opponent doesnt bring air, your air support arrives t2.

Have they released any info confirming any of this?

Having the reserves bonus apply to everything and even when your opponent brings air seems a bit broken.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 22:09

I re-read the rules on reserves and it doesn't say a 1 is an auto fail. If you have air superiority and an Autarch, could you add +2 to reserve rolls and have everything come on automatically?

I'd say that is broken, but after looking at auto-arrive terminators and drop pods... It doesn't seem like it...
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 23:00

@WhysoSully wrote:
How is air superiority going to work?  

I thought that was only for when your opponent doesnt bring air and the bonus to reserves was just for your air (not for everything) aka, if your opponent doesnt bring air, your air support arrives t2.

Have they released any info confirming any of this?

Having the reserves bonus apply to everything and even when your opponent brings air seems a bit broken.

As I understand it, the bonus is to all reserve rolls, including the flyer's reserve rolls. What I'm wondering is, if you and your opponent both bring flyers, whether you can shoot down his flyers during the Turn 1 Dogfight phase, which would (in theory) establish air superiority by Turn 2, and give you your reserve roll bonus.

Compared to stuff with reserve shenanigans like, say, Skyhammer Formations, this wouldn't be broken in the slightest.
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   2/5/2016, 23:02

I'm just going to be irked if I buy the rules, figure them out, and 8th Ed pops in three months...
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 00:04

Im really excited by these new rules because I already use (and love) the razorwings. I know they are not competitive but my opponents fear their missiles and they provide a solid counter to blobs. The small scatter dont bothers me, so the many tiny bonuses (reserve rolls, extra detachment, wing leader bonus, dogfights) make me happy.

Does GW make this only to sell more flyer? Probably. If they improve the wych rules to sell them more I would be also happy. If they finally make a multi part plastic kit for grotesques to sell more I'm in also.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 00:15

@WhySoSully wrote:
Now that I think of it, if skimmers and jet bikes are appropriate targets then the reverse must also be true.

Got to admit I was hoping (am hoping? We don't know everything yet) for something like this. Even if it was just skimmers and jetbikes fire snap shots at flyers with BS 2... Of course it would make scat bikes even better, but they are a separate issue entirely Smile

Razorwings trying to dogfight enemy flyers to death to establish air superiority is kinda cute. Timing is still awkward though - 2 chances at a dogfight on turn 1 to clear the air, plus maybe one more depending on if you go first or second. Then you either bring everything on, or hold everything back. It seems like the most common outcome will be the Razor whiffing for a couple of turns then coming on the board anyway, while your reserves pan out as per usual.

But I guess the main impact will be in planning reserve heavy lists, as we'll now need to out some thought into preventing the opponent gaining aerial superiority and a -2 to reserve rolls. Token Razor to avoid a reserves penalty?


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Arhashya
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 07:48

Not too sure if GW is doing this to sell more planes. I do not know how much stuff they sell, and believing the internet rumor sites ... then GW is doing everything they do to just sell more stuff.
Which is kind of how a company works in the first place.

But at least for me there was no need to sell me more planes. Especially the Eldar flyers are all awesome looking models. They sold me the Void Raven long ago just with the design, not even bothered much about the rules.

If those rules would really for some reason do more harm then good, then I am pretty sure that many players will just not use it. In the end GW will not send any representative to check my gaming table.

One moment, someones at the door ...

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 12:54

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
It seems like the most common outcome will be the Razor whiffing for a couple of turns then coming on the board anyway, while your reserves pan out as per usual.

Yeah, from what i've read so far this seems most likely. Not worth buying more flyers for.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 13:25

Ok, if it turns out to be true 3 Atack Planes formation brings ignore cover and tank hunter, against apropriate target. For RJF its Flyers, Skimmers, Jetbikes.

Looks to me we got boost against our Craftworld Cousins. Killing Scatter Bikes at BS4 with missiles and ignoring their jink, ignoring jink on serpents and gaining bonuses with Tank Hunter.

And our skimmers doesnt count as ground targets so most of the atack craft like Storm Ravens, Talons etc wont get their bonuses for apropriate target. Only fighters do - and those are Nephilim, Orky One and Crimson Hunter.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 13:45

@Azdrubael wrote:
Looks to me we got boost against our Craftworld Cousins. Killing Scatter Bikes at BS4 with missiles and ignoring their jink, ignoring jink on serpents and gaining bonuses with Tank Hunter.

All very well but with the exception of Implosion Missiles, Scatterbikes still get 3+ armour against all our missiles so wouldn't be jinking anyway. And Wave Serpents are probably not that worried about our missiles either, due to AV12 vs S6/7.


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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 14:00

Come on Count, must i really write use Lances on Wave Serpents? Really? Tank Hunter Lances, we didnt have one of those before. Also we will have Vector Dancer on 5 or less roll. 36 diagonal move then turn it can expose rear arc.

With cover and armor save, yeah, you right, i missed that. This is more aplicable for Wave Serpent, and rockets will do only for Vypers, Venoms, Radiers, Speeder etc...AV 10 skimmers.

No better against scatter bikes, other then the fact that RJF still can fire at full BS.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 14:30

@Azdrubael wrote:
Come on Count, must i really write use Lances on Wave Serpents? Really? Tank Hunter Lances, we didnt have one of those before. Also we will have Vector Dancer on 5 or less roll. 36 diagonal move then turn it can expose rear arc.

Fair enough, it's an improvement against Wave Serpents - about a year after most Eldar players stopped using them in any significant numbers.


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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 15:44

Well. It's useful against other tanks as well. A tank hunter Lance in the AV 10 Rear Armour? Yes please.

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 19:26

How effective will Vector Dancer on an (effective) 2+ be? When do you find out? If you make a move that depends on Vector Dancer and fail the roll, you could devastate your ability to alpha strike. I know statistically it isn't a problem, but for weapons platforms that depends on the initial missile volley it seems less than effective if you can't depend on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 21:55

Well, it's a dice game and a 2+ is as good as it gets.

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 22:17

@CptMetal wrote:
Well, it's a dice game and a 2+ is as good as it gets.

Except in reserves rolls, where a 1+ is apparently possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 22:52

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Well, it's a dice game and a 2+ is as good as it gets.

Except in reserves rolls, where a 1+ is apparently possible.

Also FNP

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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 23:11

And that's where it gets crazy... I'm not trying to break anything with a 1+ reserve roll, but a 1+ FNP is just nuts... /sigh

Maybe 8th ed really is around the corner with all the clarifications we can think of...
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   3/5/2016, 23:35

Dariokan on B&C:

No, it's too dirty. I can't tell. Sorry.
Razorwing is 5/5 Fighter, Voidraven is 5/4 Bomber (no attack craft). Huge stats...

The formation gives interceptor to the Razorwing if it uses a pattern. If in reserve, enemy cannot dogfight the bombers. Plus, you get to choose one unit, the formation has prefered enemy for the game against this unit.

Table
12: +1 to pursuit, +1 to roll in dogfight
34: One reroll per turn, any roll. Smile
56: +1 to BS if the the Leader attacks before other squad members. Must not be the only one craft of the formation on the table. Derp.

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