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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Death from the Skies   Wed Apr 27 2016, 02:04

Didn't see a topic for this yet... apparently the coming White Dwarf is full of guff about an aerial supplement for 40k.

Natfka, BOLS etc are all over it, but this pic on Miniwars (http://www.miniwars.eu/2016/04/voladores-40k.html) caught my attention:



In particular, that the book contains new datasheets for existing flyers - not just an appendix with the new stats.

[wild speculation]

Will they take the opportunity to recost them? If so, could we see a points break on the Voidraven? Or even updated options, eg to make the Razorwing actually able to play as a the fighter it is supposed to be?

[/wild speculation]

Fingers crossed Mad
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Wed Apr 27 2016, 04:12

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Will they take the opportunity to recost them? If so, could we see a points break on the Voidraven? Or even updated options, eg to make the Razorwing actually able to play as a the fighter it is supposed to be?

Would be great if true and done in a way that would actually help us not just be pointless.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Wed Apr 27 2016, 04:20

Well the article on that picture literally mentions the Voidraven by name, in fact it is the first bomber they talk about, so yeah there's a very real chance they will actually give it some positive attention. Fingers crossed for a Strength D Voidmine and Shrouded!

Interestingly, they also word it such that bombers "struggle in Dogfights, but they make up for it with extra firepower" , so bombers might have some deficiency against other fliers, most likely in a lack of mobility. However, with such rules, they will likely balance it by giving bombers far greater power against ground based targets, like strafing run as standard, or some kind of re roll to hit or ignores cover ability against non flyers.

I believe with the new dataslates, the Voidraven could come out with a completely new ruleset and price tag. Even if they do not radically change the Voidraven itself, I'm betting it's new 'class' of bomber will provide it with a direct boost against ground targets.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Wed Apr 27 2016, 04:50

I just want it to have a decent Strength D or D+1 void mine. That would be the solution for many of our problems.

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sat Apr 30 2016, 22:19

All but fighters lose skyfire, fighters get -1bs against ground targets. RJF are fighters, VRB are bombers.

Bombers are worse in dogfights, and having too many make you worse at dogfights. Fighters are good at dogfights, and having many makes you better.

RJF Get max pursuit and max Agility (That is 5) VRB has one less agility. Outside dogfights, Pursuit increases your min and max flatout move. (So RJF and VRB, being supersonic, flat out 23"-41"), while Agility lets you roll a d6 during your move. If you roll your agility or less, you may make an additional 90 degree turn. For comparison, marine flyers tend to have 3 in both stats.

You can kill enemy flyers in reserve with your own flyers in reserve, and Fighters are good at that, while bombers are easy targets, unless they're VRBs in the new DE flyer formation (2RJF + 2VRB). They can't be picked out and killed in dogfights as long as you have RJFs. On table; The RJFs in the formation gain interceptor, and all get preferred enemy against a single unit of your choice.

DE benefit quite a lot from this book. However, Bombers benefit the least from attack patterns. Attack craft, which we lack, benefit the most.
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DarkCycu
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 01:45

So it seems we have the most agile and the fastest planes, plus sth similar to vector dancer. I have the question, what are the benefits of being bomber?
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 03:17

Where'd you get that info, Marco? That formation sounds pretty awesome, and our high stats are a nice touch. Nice to see we're back to being super-fast.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 04:22

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 09:09

So, Voidravens in Wings drop S10 bombs...sounds nice. And reroll of 1s to wound from Preferred Enemy.

Anybody know what Air Superiority rule is?

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 09:39

Air superiority: if you have flyers in reserve, and your opponent doesn't, you can choose +1 or -1 to your reserve rolls, and your opponent gets -1 to reserve rolls. (Increases from 1 to 2 if the flyers are from the special all-flyer detachment).

The problem with bombers is that their Attack pattern Bonuses only affects their bombs. And Attack pattern bonuses last from the end of your movement phase in which you end your movement in an attack pattern, and last until the end of the next movement phase. Thus, bombers can't benefit from their bonuses to their bombs in the turn they enter from reserves. (They can however benefit from the 4++, IWND, Interceptor-pattern, the Permanent Preferred Enemy-pattern and the Flat out and drop bombs pattern. However, the first two require 4 flyers (Of the same kind or from the same flyer formation), and the second 3. And I doubt anyone's going to use more than 1 VRB. At most 2 in the 4 flyer formation, but not 2-4 VRB on their own. )
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 09:55

So, you can flat-out and drop bomb? Thats really good. How many do you need for it? Its unclear... im 1 Void Raven away from 4 Flyers formation.

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 10:16

3 flyers, Either all 3 VRBs, or, The formation after one has been shot down.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 10:58

Ok, thats pretty expensive. What about realistic and all times usable things. This Flyer Detachment - can i take 2 Razorwings as Flyer Detachment and always have +-2 to reserve rolls and -1 to enemy if enemy doesnt have Flyers?

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 11:02

Yes, but only while your razorwings are in reserve.

Also, They arrive from reserve as a pair.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 11:15

I can't see where Dark Eldar benefit from this book. The Razorwing is still valid but it isn't as good in killing tanks as it's been before...

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 11:44

@CptMetal wrote:
I can't see where Dark Eldar benefit from this book. The Razorwing is still valid but it isn't as good in killing tanks as it's been before...

Also, out of the Razorwing's 7 weapons, 5 are anti-infantry. Now their BS is reduced to 3.

Orks and Space Marines (of course) are getting a new flyer each. Let's hope Dark Eldar get an actual fighter as well.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 12:39

@MarcoAvrelis wrote:
Air superiority: if you have flyers in reserve, and your opponent doesn't, you can choose +1 or -1 to your reserve rolls, and your opponent gets -1 to reserve rolls. (Increases from 1 to 2 if the flyers are from the special all-flyer detachment).

This is pretty cool. Curiously you can use it on the very flyers giving you the bonus. Will likely only matter if your opponent hasn't taken any planes though, unless you can shoot down everything he has in your turn 2.

@MarcoAvrelis wrote:
The problem with bombers is that their Attack pattern Bonuses only affects their bombs. And Attack pattern bonuses last from the end of your movement phase in which you end your movement in an attack pattern, and last until the end of the next movement phase. Thus, bombers can't benefit from their bonuses to their bombs in the turn they enter from reserves.

... and this is pretty lame. Classic GW though. "Here, have all of these attack patterns that are awesome for bombers! It totally makes up for bombers getting shafted in dogfights and anti-air, and makes their bombs amazing. Oh, except you can't use them on your bombs."

I really hope there is more than meets the early images here, and that some of these will actually be useful. It would be nice to think the Razorwing can get something to make up for the BS gimp at least!

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:
Razorwings are amongst the top tier fighter aircraft now. And -1bs on 4 large blasts isn’t that bad. (And interceptor in the DE formation).

(http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/05/death-from-the-skies-rules-spilling.html)

Not sure how... interceptor in the formation sounds neat, although at -1 BS still stings. The hilarity of smashing some Deep Strikers with monoscythe missiles might be worth it though Twisted Evil

From the same article they note a 3 plane attack pattern to give Ignores Cover - could be funny with three Void Ravens toting dark scythes.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 19:59

Quote :
Will likely only matter if your opponent hasn't taken any planes though, unless you can shoot down everything he has in your turn 2.

Or in dogfight, which is now its own subphase.

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Sun May 01 2016, 23:32

If I understand correctly:
- Now we have good anti air?
- Now I can take my 2 razorwings as a formation (thus 2 more FA slots in a CAD)
- Free nightshield for the wing leader
- If my opponent dont bring flyers at all, I now have a flexible reserve manipulation for my webways (without needing Eldar, fortification or a lucky warlord trait).

And for this, all I lose is one more inch in large blast scatter 67% of the time, IF my target is not a jetbike or a skimmer? It sounds AWESOME!
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 01:25

@Mononcule wrote:
If I understand correctly:
- Now we have good anti air?
- Now I can take my 2 razorwings as a formation (thus 2 more FA slots in a CAD)
- Free nightshield for the wing leader
- If my opponent dont bring flyers at all, I now have a flexible reserve manipulation for my webways (without needing Eldar, fortification or a lucky warlord trait).

And for this, all I lose is one more inch in large blast scatter 67% of the time, IF my target is not a jetbike or a skimmer? It sounds AWESOME!

I hope your right but I have to ask, how do we have good AA now?
2 dark lances was not good AA before and if taking more RWs was better wouldn't we be doing this already?

No DE army ive seen before took 3-4 flyers as our flyers are quite average and expensive (both in $ and pts) and there are FAR better ways to spend those pts/$.

Again I hope ur right but i don't see how this makes taking multiple DE flyers good compared to what else we could get with those pts and slots.
Please educate me. Smile
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 06:34

@Painjunky wrote:
I hope your right but I have to ask, how do we have good AA now?
2 dark lances was not good AA before and if taking more RWs was better wouldn't we be doing this already?

I think what we need to make the best of these new rules is a new fighter plane. One that pumps out more anti-vehicle shots.

That said, the Razorwing would have been better as an attack flyer.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 08:20

Sadly, more typical GW. Blatant attempt to get us to buy a shedload more flyers but, as usual, completely missing the mark when it comes to the rules and either making them ridiculous or unusable.

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 08:23

@Mononcule wrote:
If I understand correctly:
- Now we have good anti air?
In the dogfiht phase, kinda, on the field, no, it's everyone else who got worse.

@Mononcule wrote:

- Now I can take my 2 razorwings as a formation (thus 2 more FA slots in a CAD)
Not as formation, but as a detachment.

@Mononcule wrote:

- Free nightshield for the wing leader
Nope, the random traits are : Pursuit 6, 7 in dogfights (Officially the fastest flyers now), reroll one dice per turn, ANY dice, And, +1 bs if attacking before any other flyer from his/her wing.

@Mononcule wrote:

- If my opponent dont bring flyers at all, I now have a flexible reserve manipulation for my webways (without needing Eldar, fortification or a lucky warlord trait).
Yes, and double up with the flyer detachment
@Mononcule wrote:

And for this, all I lose is one more inch in large blast scatter 67% of the time, IF my target is not a jetbike or a skimmer?

Yes
@Mononcule wrote:
It sounds AWESOME!

It is.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 08:53

@jimsolo freakshow buff? Thats a lot of shrieks and invis 2-4 hemlocks and some crimson support.

Preferred enemy d blasts!?


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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Death from the Skies   Mon May 02 2016, 09:55

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Sadly, more typical GW. Blatant attempt to get us to buy a shedload more flyers but, as usual, completely missing the mark when it comes to the rules and either making them ridiculous or unusable.

Agreed but which is this?

Nothing i've seen so far makes me want to buy more flyers.
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