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 ITC Tourney May 28th

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: ITC Tourney May 28th   Tue Apr 26 2016, 16:51

Ok I am heading to an ITC tourney on May 28th. Its going to be a big event and everyone is bringing the Cheese. So please check the 2 lists and tell me what you thing.

Dark Eldar CAD

Succubus (Glaive, WWP)

Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)

Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops, Champian w\Agonizer)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Tantalus (NightShield)

Eldar CAD
Autarch (Banshee Mask, Shyrunner, Laser Lance)

Wraith Guard x 5 D-Sythes

Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3



OR

Dark Eldar CAD

Succubus (Glaive, WWP)

Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)

Raider (w\Dark Lance)
Raider (w\Dark Lance)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops).

Ravager (w\3x Dark Lances
Tantalus (NightShield)

Eldar Allies
Autarch (Banshee Mask, Shyrunner, Laser Lance)

Wraith Guard x 5 D-Sythes

Scat Bikes x 3
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Tue Apr 26 2016, 17:08

PS I do have a long list of available models including a wraithknight. For Dark Eldar the only things I don't have are:
Court of the Archon
Mandrakes
Hellions
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 14:44

I'd take the first list, but drop the blasters from the warriors, and the champion+agoniser. That'd give you 80 points to pay for a unit of 5 swooping hawks.

Swooping hawks are really good anti-tank units because they can move 18" in the movement phase and they have haywire grenades on every model. So if your opponent sets up on their deployment line, you can potentially charge them first turn with a 6" charge with fleet. Very Happy

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:02

DANG,  You mention one of the few units I don't have.  Let me see if I can pick up a squad.  Smile



I actually don't have a lot of ELDAR. I have a lot of Dark Eldar.

Do have a squad of Warp Spiders, Wraithknight, 18 Scat Bikes, FireDragons, Dark Reapers.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:04

I will second BetrayTheWorld. I think you will get more mileage out of the scatbikes than the DE warriors. However, a raider for your Wraiths would be nice. Maybe at the cost of your blasters/champion?

BTW, where is your Succ going to be? I dont see enough room for her in any of your transports.

Lastly, Im guessing your Autarch will be chilling with the Reavers? The bikeseer may be a better force multiplyer, but maybe not with the small scatbike squads...

My $0.02
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:07

His succubus is going with the dscythes.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:09

Hmmm. If so thats an interesting choice of HQ to walk up the field with the Wraith. Unless the Tantalus has a large transport capacity? (I dont know FW much)
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:13

fisheyes wrote:
Hmmm. If so thats an interesting choice of HQ to walk up the field with the Wraith. Unless the Tantalus has a large transport capacity? (I dont know FW much)

Yes that is the only reason to take the Tantalus.   It can hold 16 models.

The Succubus would join the WraithGuard in the Tantalus.   Deep striking where I please.   Get the first 5 Flamers.    Then if they charge the tantalus.  that is D3 x 5 more.   Plus the tantalus has 3+ Jink with 5 HP so Killing isn't going to be simple.   Now yes I know its Open Topped and can be lucky shot with a Lascannon/Melta Gun.  

This is my way of Dealing with DeathStars.
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:48

Ah, my mistake. It has a built in WWP for perfect DS placement?
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:55

No that is what the succubus is for. Succubus w\ wwp. She allows it to DS without scatter. Once she lands she can sneak off on to something else. IE Devastator squad or standard Tac squad The Wraiths would stay in the Tantalus as long as possible.

Yes that is 570 Points but with the new Librarian death Stars running around. I have to have something to deal with them.


Of Course the 12 Str 5 ap 2 shots from the Tantalus is nothing to ignore. Smile
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 21:31

List one looks better

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 21:38

Thank you everyone. I am fighting to see if I can get some Swooping Hawks.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Wed Apr 27 2016, 22:21

mrmagoo wrote:
Thank you everyone.   I am fighting to see if I can get some Swooping Hawks.

I picked up a whole aspect formation worth.  They are insane with BS 5 and even though they dont have obsec you can still use them decently to play objectives.

Dont forget about their grenade packs too. No LOS no Cover save large blast template =) (it varies by squad size so for large blast you need 6 in the squad)

Just remember to LOS yourself from the squad you deepstrike grenade if you plan on targeting a different unit in the shooting phase (if possible you must shoot the same target you used the grenade pack on, if you cant see them, you get to choose a different target!

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Thu Apr 28 2016, 14:08

Ok Thanks to everyone that responded. I was leaning toward list 1 as well but I am a Purest when it comes to DE and really HATE that I have to bring our Eldar Brothers to make my list competitive.  But that is the way things are going.  

I went out and purchased 6 Swooping hawks on EBAY.  Hopefully I will get them here and get them painted by the 28th of may.  

I also didn't like losing all of those blasters in each squad so I dropped a Warrior squad al together. And just took a singular venom.

Thoughts?

Dark Eldar Real Space Raiders

Succubus (Glaive, WWP, HG)

Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Blaster, Venom w\Dual Cannons)

Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Venom

Tantalus (NightShield)

Eldar CAD
Autarch (Banshee Mask, Shyrunner, Laser Lance)

Wraith Guard x 5 D-Sythes

Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3

Swooping hawks x 5


Last edited by mrmagoo on Thu Apr 28 2016, 18:44; edited 1 time in total
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Thu Apr 28 2016, 17:29

Blasters on warrior squads are generally bad anyhow. They're overpriced and make your warriors inefficient. They're either wasting splinter shots by shooting at vehicles or wasting a 15 point blaster by shooting at infantry. The only time they're not inefficient is when shooting at infantry with a 4+ armour save or better, and no invuln save. They used to be good when the meta encouraged us to get as many darklight shots into our list as possible. That is no longer the meta.

I'd personally rather have the extra obsec warriors and obsec on the venom, but 2 blasters on warrior squads and a champ w/agoniser doesn't really tank the list or anything. It might even help with AT since you're just a touch light. Since it's only 2 blasters and you have a decent number of obsec scatbikes, it should be fine.

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Thu Apr 28 2016, 18:44

Sorry I copied and pasted the Champ and Agnoiser aren't there.

So I thought only your primary Detachment counted toward Objective secure? So the Venoms would not count anyway?
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Thu Apr 28 2016, 22:38

mrmagoo wrote:
Sorry I copied and pasted the Champ and Agnoiser aren't there.  

So I thought only your primary Detachment counted toward Objective secure?  So the Venoms would not count anyway?

Its actually only on formations and detachments that specifically say so.

No formation or detachment automatically gets obsec.  Even CAD's specifically say they have it.

This can be slightly confusing so always make note of which units have obsec when checking your opponents list.   I have had people try and use all troops as obsec against me and I have also had someone tell me my CAD's kabalite venoms didnt get obsec (both false).

many units are scoring units, but obsec is a special kind of scoring unit.

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Fri Apr 29 2016, 02:19

WhysoSully wrote:
No formation or detachment automatically gets obsec.  Even CAD's specifically say they have it.

This can be slightly confusing so always make note of which units have obsec when checking your opponents list.   I have had people try and use all troops as obsec against me and I have also had someone tell me my CAD's kabalite venoms didnt get obsec (both false).

You're so right, and sadly some people can be quite sly about it - particularly Marine players with all their crazy formations.

The easiest way to check what has Obsec is to have a read of the opponent's detachment/formation special rules. Unless it explicitly says Objective Secured, they don't have it. To my knowledge there's only a handful of non-CAD detachments that have Obsec.

As for your immediate concerns, @mrmagoo ALL of your Eldar or Dark Eldar CADs have full Obsec, not just the primary detachment.

As for Blasters, the only time it really pays off having a single Blaster and 4 Splinter Rifles is when you're shooting at something like Tau Crisis Suits, Tyranid Warriors or Ork Nobs - where the blaster can instant death one of them and the rifles add a few more wounds to remaining models. Even then, I can't recommend it. You'd be lucky to actually get one of these match ups in the first place, and even then usually these units hide in cover, or transports, or both.

Thus, I double BtW's call for removing Blasters from the unit, keeping them focused, and most importantly, cheap and cheerful. Two sources of Obsec with decent firepower and good mobility for 105 pts is really, really good. When you give three or four such units a blaster, you've added 45 - 60 pts to the price tag, and you also start asking too much from a small unit of T3 models.

As you are designing a list for competitive play, you'll already know that tournament fatigue is a real thing - you're constantly bombarded with decisions and choices, several games in a row, sometimes over multiple days. With armies like Dark Eldar, sometimes it's a real boon to have your troop choices simplified, so you know their limits, and their priorities are easy to work out, and you don't get disappointed when you try to make the Blaster work against a vehicle and waste the opportunity for 10 more splinter rifle shots or make a run move to cover or an objective.

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Fri Apr 29 2016, 13:55

OBJ.
That stinks because I have always chosen a primary detachment and only counted that detachment as Object Secure. Guess you learn something new every day. Smile

Blasters.
OK, Thanks for the explanation. I have always done the blasters w\ each unit. So Let me redo my list this morning and see what I can do with it.

I have the ability to take up to 9 Venoms, 7 Raiders. Going to see what I can do to fit more in there.

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Fri Apr 29 2016, 14:22

Ok well is pretty much down to what BetrayTheWorld said to begin with. Smile

Dark Eldar CAD

Succubus (Glaive, WWP)

Warriors x 5 (Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Venom w\Dual Cannons)
Warriors x 5 (Venom w\Dual Cannons)

Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)
Reavers x 6 (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Tantalus (NightShield)

Eldar CAD
Autarch (Banshee Mask, Shyrunner, Laser Lance)

Wraith Guard x 5 D-Sythes

Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3
Scat Bikes x 3

Swooping hawks x 5

So My concern at this point is large Vehicles. Obviously 12 and under are taken care of with the Scat Bikes, but 13-15, I have 0 Lances. So Hawks and WraithGuard? Smart Players going to obliterate the Hawks before they can do anything. Even if they deepstrike that is only 1 Haywire Shot. If someone doesn't attack them then the next turn they can hurt it.

Knights?
Ork Gargants?
Monoliths?
Land Raiders?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Fri Apr 29 2016, 16:02

Hawks can move 18 inches. That's huge. No matter what deployment type you're using, "no man's land" outside both deployment zones is always 24 inches across. That means with only a 6 inch charge, swooping hawks can move from your deployment zone and charge into your opponent's deployment zone. And they have fleet to reroll their charge distance.

I generally put them behind a line of sight blocker if I'm not going first. They ARE vulnerable to barrage in that instance, but honestly, most opponents don't bring barrage weapons.

When they DO get the charge on an AV14 vehicle, it dies pretty much without fail when I use them. They typically get 1 thrown haywire grenade at BS5(from the exarch) that has a 70% chance to do a hullpoint, followed by 6 melee attacks hitting on 3's and doing a hullpoint on 2+.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The wraithguard are also an option. If someone has AV13-14 vehicles, they probably paid a pretty penny for them, and with WWP wraithguard in a tantalus, it's possible for you to hit 2 vehicles at a time with 5 templates each, which pretty much means 2 dead vehicles.

All that said, I agree that you're still light on AT for my tastes. But I try not to change people's lists too much when they ask for list advice. I typically try to streamline and make their idea more efficient than to apply my own ideas.

If it was my list, I'd almost invariably take the aspect host formation with 3 units of 6 swooping hawks with an exarch upgrade. It gives them all BS5(BS6 on exarch), and let's them reroll pinning, morale, and fear checks. Furthermore, having the exarch in each squad makes them not scatter on deep strike, and having 6 members per squad gives their grenade pack large blasts instead of small.

With 18 swooping hawks, the odd barrage weapon isn't that big of a concern because I have redundancy. I even occasionally use swooping hawks to bubblewrap other units to protect them from deep strike alpha strikes.

But I've never had swooping hawks not be useful. 18" movement in the movement phase is so tactically advantageous that even when my opponent doesn't bring vehicles, they still do work. Even though their guns are S3, they're still assault 3, and at BS5, that's typically a lot of hits from 18 S3 shots. That said, don't forget that they have plasma grenades! The grenade is almost always a better option against marines.

TLDR: Yeah, might be a touch light on AT, but what you do have will potentially take out 3-4 AV14 vehicles in the first 2 turns, and AV 14 vehicles aren't that cheap, so you'll probably be ok.

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Fri Apr 29 2016, 16:11

Thank you BetrayTheWorld, I am planning on now adding 18 Swooping hawks to my list. Smile That is for sure. Probablem is getting 18 of them and getting them painted in a month. I love the idea, I have used the aspect host in the past but that is with Firedragons, Reapers, Spiders.

I did order 1 squad of Swooping hawks and they have been added to my list. Hope it doesn't take to long for the person to ship them.

Thanks again.

PS I am going to try and pick up 18 swooping hawks by the 28th. If I can I will loose something.
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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Sat Apr 30 2016, 08:09

I used an aspect host of hawks today, I thought it was smart to keep them in reserve because I was playing a very assaulty khorn list. NOPE! Horrible Idea. I mean it wasnt game ending because I still came out on top (giving them invis is amazing at keeping them alive).

Definitely deploy them like betray says.

Side note: Alot of people at my club dont realize they move 18. Can catch people off guard, use it to your advantage.

Also, in case you're like me and still have old rules rattling in your head, they can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase. I didn't realize this, so really try to get them in assault range.

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Sat Apr 30 2016, 22:31

Yeah, assault with their haywire grenades is how they kill vehicles so well. Lucky for us, they have 18" movement and fleet to reroll charge distances, so they legitimately threaten charges at 30 inches, while 24-26 inch charges are virtually guaranteed.

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PostSubject: Re: ITC Tourney May 28th   Sun May 01 2016, 07:57

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Yeah, assault with their haywire grenades is how they kill vehicles so well. Lucky for us, they have 18" movement and fleet to reroll charge distances, so they legitimately threaten charges at 30 inches, while 24-26 inch charges are virtually guaranteed.

Played 1850 vs a nova league necrons list today.  Was winning when we had to call it due to time(shop was closing)!

Killed doomsday arc and annihilation barge t1. (assaulting w hawks)

Granted he thought they could only move 12"  (played a game yesterday as well where my opponent thought the same thing)

Luckily I think they will over compensate and focus everything on the hawks next time we play which means I get 3 units distracting my opponents now!

Hawks almost took out the necron flyers too!

needless to say by turn 3 all but one squad remained.

Def worth taking the aspect host.  Great advice!

Also worth noting, it was one of those "you can get your opponents secure objective X cards"  and I was able to get all my objectives and two of my opponents for two turns due to the distraction of my hawks and grotesques (which were mvp's holding up a squad of wraiths 6 wraiths basically 3 turns. 3+ invuln OP! lol) so I was at 13ish VP using standard objective by the bottom of the 3rd when we called it.

Said it was his first loss with his list in 2 years, I told him it was undecided due to time.  He did have a decent chance at tabling me if I failed an invis on my harly/cwe psyker star.  That S10 necron shinanigans is tough.  Once the flyers came on I was almost lucky to have the grots in combat with wraiths lmao.

Was a blast.  Really appreciate the help over the weeks betray.

Sorry guys this was a little off topic but yeah hawks are fricken awesome!

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