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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 23:54

Kehmor wrote:
I don't actually see anywhere that says you can't tank shock in the shooting phase - only that you can't flat out after you've tanked shocked. Maybe not rules as intended but certainly rules as written (unless I've missed a bit).

I think you're grasping at straws on that one.  I don't see a single TO ever signing off on that interpretation.  Tank shocking occurs instead of "moving normally."  By saying you cannot move Flat Out after Tank Shocking, I think it makes it very clear that the implication here is that moving Flat Out occurs after "normal movement" (IE moving in the movement phase).

In any event, have fun with it!  Hope it works out!
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Tue Apr 26 2016, 00:06

Jimsolo wrote:
Kehmor wrote:
I don't actually see anywhere that says you can't tank shock in the shooting phase - only that you can't flat out after you've tanked shocked. Maybe not rules as intended but certainly rules as written (unless I've missed a bit).

I think you're grasping at straws on that one.  I don't see a single TO ever signing off on that interpretation.  Tank shocking occurs instead of "moving normally."  By saying you cannot move Flat Out after Tank Shocking, I think it makes it very clear that the implication here is that moving Flat Out occurs after "normal movement" (IE moving in the movement phase).

In any event, have fun with it!  Hope it works out!

Actually you're right - page 75 clarifies it - you can't move flat out in a turn you tank shock.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Wed Apr 27 2016, 04:02

It's a high risk, high reward kind of strategy.

A single krak grenade, which is hardly the most impressive option we are likely to encounter, can immobilise or explode our Raider or Venom on a 5+. Anything with AP 1 or 2 only makes our chances of success even slimmer. Still, it's hard to argue that potentially killing multiple models without them getting any saves, is anything short of awesome.

A more reliable, albeit more expensive option, would be to use Craftworld Eldar Tanks, as they're among the widest regular vehicles in the game. Of course it doesn't hurt that they also have tougher armour values, are not open topped, and don't have to pay 5/10 pts upgrade for 'Tank' status as our skimmers do.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Fri Apr 29 2016, 21:25

So I was having a look at the tantalus the other day and saw the skysycthe slaughter host - i have no idea if this is still legit to take. If you don't know it allows your vehicles (minimum two tantalus and one reaper) to deepstrike without scatter and to move at combat speed the turn they arrive.

If it is allowed you could take the formation and swooping hawks - deep strike both in exactly where you need them to pull this off and have 12 front armor to resist any death or glory.

Obviously super expensive - but potentially hilarious.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 02:40

It'd be tough to get the positioning right with swooping hawks since, while they don't scatter, they still have to deep strike in concentric circles, so 1 squad couldn't surround anything, even halfway.

Also, just being allowed to move at combat speed doesn't necessarily mean you can tank shock. I think(didn't double check) tank shock requires that you haven't moved at all in the phase, and deep striking counts as if you moved, even if the formation gives you further permission to move after deep striking.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 07:19

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It'd be tough to get the positioning right with swooping hawks since, while they don't scatter, they still have to deep strike in concentric circles, so 1 squad couldn't surround anything, even halfway.

Also, just being allowed to move at combat speed doesn't necessarily mean you can tank shock. I think(didn't double check) tank shock requires that you haven't moved at all in the phase, and deep striking counts as if you moved, even if the formation gives you further permission to move after deep striking.

Both valid points - the hawks could easily be moved in though.

As for not being able to tank shock - in the tank shock rule bit it just says you do it instead of moving normally. And that you can't flat out in the same turn. I do see why you wouldn't be able to.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 14:13

Kehmor wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It'd be tough to get the positioning right with swooping hawks since, while they don't scatter, they still have to deep strike in concentric circles, so 1 squad couldn't surround anything, even halfway.

Also, just being allowed to move at combat speed doesn't necessarily mean you can tank shock. I think(didn't double check) tank shock requires that you haven't moved at all in the phase, and deep striking counts as if you moved, even if the formation gives you further permission to move after deep striking.

Both valid points - the hawks could easily be moved in though.

I'm not sure it's as easy as you think.

As they're supposedly doing this on the turn on which both the Hawks and the formation arrive, the Hawks will only get "be moved in" as part of a run move in the shooting phase, when the tank shock needs to be made in your movement phase.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 20:45

Crunch! doesnt seem to be reliable tactic, sadly.

There are only 3 guaranteeble outcomes from tankshock:

1. Moral Check
2. Clumping models on the side of the vehicle, cause they forced to move shortest move possible to get out of the way, even if they dont flee. That can be negated with Death or Glory. As a side note venom is kinda better at resisting Death or Glory, cause it have Invul. Dont remember if you can take Invul during that tank shock, maybe GW added some stupid stuff like no saves of any kind allowed.
3. Failed Moral check if target already fleeing

Im seeing how you can use 2 and 3.

Clumped models became much more exposed to blast and templates. If you bring templates to the table, like D-Scytes that will help hit more models, potentially covering entire deathstar. Also for works for other filmsy templates like Liquifier, and blasts like Plasma Grenade, Shredder, Cronos stuff etc. Or Necrotoxin rockets, they wont even have chance to hurt tank shocking vehicle if it scattered over it. You need more then one unit for said tactic to work - one sad vehicle to do the shocking and damage dealing unit nearby.

Units that already failed moral check can be escorted to their table edge with more tank shocks. If memory serve, they will fail them automatically. Naturally making enemy to fail the moral in the first place is a harder part. Probably our Freakshow masters know more about it.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 21:01

Since the most powerful death star is the Space Marines one failing a morale check isn't an option....

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sat Apr 30 2016, 22:37

Oh, it definitely CAN be reliable with swooping hawks 18" movement in the movement phase, assuming you have enough swooping hawks.

People won't see it coming, so it'll work as long as it isn't a common tactic. You could even build an army around this tactic for a pittance. As soon as it becomes a common tactic, however, people will just stay out of tank shock range unless they're charging the vehicle.

Hmm, can you tank shock gargantuan creatures? lol

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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 01:22

hydranixx wrote:
Kehmor wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It'd be tough to get the positioning right with swooping hawks since, while they don't scatter, they still have to deep strike in concentric circles, so 1 squad couldn't surround anything, even halfway.

Also, just being allowed to move at combat speed doesn't necessarily mean you can tank shock. I think(didn't double check) tank shock requires that you haven't moved at all in the phase, and deep striking counts as if you moved, even if the formation gives you further permission to move after deep striking.

Both valid points - the hawks could easily be moved in though.

I'm not sure it's as easy as you think.

As they're supposedly doing this on the turn on which both the Hawks and the formation arrive, the Hawks will only get "be moved in" as part of a run move in the shooting phase, when the tank shock needs to be made in your movement phase.

I meant instead of deepstriking them in
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 01:25

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Oh, it definitely CAN be reliable with swooping hawks 18" movement in the movement phase, assuming you have enough swooping hawks.

People won't see it coming, so it'll work as long as it isn't a common tactic. You could even build an army around this tactic for a pittance. As soon as it becomes a common tactic, however, people will just stay out of tank shock range unless they're charging the vehicle.

Hmm, can you tank shock gargantuan creatures? lol

Well with the skyscythe host - they can't stay out of range - again though I have no clue if this is still legit to take in competitive play.

You'd be hard pressed to find a gargantuan creature without a very good chance of popping the tank with death or glory Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 01:26

Azdrubael wrote:
Crunch! doesnt seem to be reliable tactic, sadly.

There are only 3 guaranteeble outcomes from tankshock:

1. Moral Check
2. Clumping models on the side of the vehicle, cause they forced to move shortest move possible to get out of the way, even if they dont flee. That can be negated with Death or Glory. As a side note venom is kinda better at resisting Death or Glory, cause it have Invul. Dont remember if you can take Invul during that tank shock, maybe GW added some stupid stuff like no saves of any kind allowed.
3. Failed Moral check if target already fleeing

Im seeing how you can use 2 and 3.

Clumped models became much more exposed to blast and templates. If you bring templates to the table, like D-Scytes that will help hit more models, potentially covering entire deathstar. Also for works for other filmsy templates like Liquifier, and blasts like Plasma Grenade, Shredder, Cronos stuff etc. Or Necrotoxin rockets, they wont even have chance to hurt tank shocking vehicle if it scattered over it. You need more then one unit for said tactic to work - one sad vehicle to do the shocking and damage dealing unit nearby.

Units that already failed moral check can be escorted to their table edge with more tank shocks. If memory serve, they will fail them automatically. Naturally making enemy to fail the moral in the first place is a harder part. Probably our Freakshow masters know more about it.

Could you please expand why you feel it isn't reliable - this whole thread is about discussing how one can make it reliable.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 09:22

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Could you please expand why you feel it isn't reliable
Because you need to surround it with reavers. That means you have to have reavers 12" away from target and tankshocking vehicle 12" away and stay there at least a turn, because tank shocking done in the movement phase, you cant use reavers very long flat-out and have to rely on their normal 12 move, cause tank shock will already be done by the point you make your move.

First point. Enemy must not move away.
Second point. Enemy must not shoot or assault Reavers. If you will have losses you will not be able to surround them and crunch! will not work. And staying at that range or closer is bascally feeding them to anything you want to surround, one flamer and its over. Im personally never getting them closer then 20" after flat-out to anything dangerous.

On a side note, when i write all this, i actually thought that you can use crunch! as a sorta mop up move. If you stood 2 phases in close combat and made hit-n-run, you can resurround your initial target and attempt Crunch!. Then shoot and assault again.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 12:08

Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Could you please expand why you feel it isn't reliable
Because you need to surround it with reavers. That means you have to have reavers 12" away from target and tankshocking vehicle 12" away and stay there at least a turn, because tank shocking done in the movement phase, you cant use reavers very long flat-out and have to rely on their normal 12 move, cause tank shock will already be done by the point you make your move.

First point. Enemy must not move away.
Second point. Enemy must not shoot or assault Reavers. If you will have losses you will not be able to surround them and crunch! will not work. And staying at that range or closer is bascally feeding them to anything you want to surround, one flamer and its over. Im personally never getting them closer then 20" after flat-out to anything dangerous.

On a side note, when i write all this, i actually thought that you can use crunch! as a sorta mop up move. If you stood 2 phases in close combat and made hit-n-run, you can resurround your initial target and attempt Crunch!. Then shoot and assault again.

Maybe you didn't read the whole conversation (which is cool I often do that) = but we've since established that a full surround actually isn't as efficient as just blocking off one unit. Secondly it has been suggested that swooping hawks are used instead of reavers now - as they have 18 inch movement.

The difficulty now would be getting the vehicle you wanted to tank shock close enough.

I'd say this could be solved by baiting in the case of death stars or with the skysycthe host for a hilarious but expensive (both points and $$$) option.
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 20:47

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Secondly it has been suggested that swooping hawks are used instead of reavers now - as they have 18 inch movement.
18? They are moving 12 as jump infantry and can run solid 6 with bonus, but run is done in shooting phase. So no better then reavers. Reavers can move 48 that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 23:11

Swooping Hawks have an 18" move. Makes our scourges look so slow Sad

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 23:17

Am i missing some rule? What makes them move 18 in the movement phase?

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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 23:20

Their swooping hawk wings.

P154 (cwe codex) when a unit composed entirely of models equipped with swooping hawk wings uses its jump move in the movement phase, it can move up to 18" instead of 12"

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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun May 01 2016, 23:24

Azdrubael wrote:
Am i missing some rule? What makes them move 18 in the movement phase?

Swooping hawk wings
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon May 02 2016, 15:06

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Hmm, can you tank shock gargantuan creatures? lol

You definitely CAN tank shock a gargantuan creature. It's one of the most "reliable" way to kill a Tau jumbo suit. You wait 'til he lock his suit to the ground, then tank shock. If he fail his Death or Glory, as he can't move out of the way, he is insta-crunshed!

The hardest part is keeping the vehicule alive long enough to come at range of the tank shock AND survive the Death of Glory. But it CAN be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Wed May 04 2016, 18:59

Well this pretty much kills this plan. From the recent FAQ:

Q: How does Tank Shock work when you stop on a unit? The rules state that the models ‘must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance’ – but what does this mean? The shortest distance that allows you to be in unit coherency? Or the shortest distance to just be out from under the vehicle, with models dying if not in unit coherency and at least 1" away from enemy units? What happens if a Gargantuan Creature or Monstrous Creature or any other non-vehicle unit gets Tank Shocked, but cannot move to another place in the shortest way? Are they destroyed or just moved further away?
A: Pick the unit up, and place it on the battlefield with all models as close as possible to the unit’s original location, with all models in unit coherency, and no models within 1" of an enemy unit. The intent of this rule is simply to deal with situations where two models end up occupying the same space – it is NOT meant to provide players with a way of destroying the unit that is being Tank Shocked.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Wed May 04 2016, 19:09

When is that FAQ from?

Also, that FAQ is inconsistent with how the rule is written. The rule in question references models, but the FAQ references entire units. So does that mean that a unit being tank shocked, where 1 model would end up beneath a tank and can't be moved in coherency with the other 4 models in the unit would allow you to move the other 4 models, when the original rule clearly states that you cannot do so?

Based on the writing of that FAQ, there is literally no way for a unit or model to EVER die, but models dying was clearly the original intent, as the book clearly says it can and does happen in specific cases.

That FAQ just made it more confusing.

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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Wed May 04 2016, 19:30

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
When is that FAQ from?

Also, that FAQ is inconsistent with how the rule is written. The rule in question references models, but the FAQ references entire units. So does that mean that a unit being tank shocked, where 1 model would end up beneath a tank and can't be moved in coherency with the other 4 models in the unit would allow you to move the other 4 models, when the original rule clearly states that you cannot do so?

Based on the writing of that FAQ, there is literally no way for a unit or model to EVER die, but models dying was clearly the original intent, as the book clearly says it can and does happen in specific cases.

That FAQ just made it more confusing.

It's from about an hour ago Razz

I agree re: it being more confusing
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Thu May 05 2016, 00:34

Today, at games workshop:
"-So, what this emergency meeting is about?
-It seems someone found a way to one-shot kill our new expensive toys.
-What?? Which army? Grey Knights? Necrons?
-Worse. Dark Eldars!
-No way. We designed those to be the laughing at army. They're not there to win. You need to find a way to fix it temporally, until we finish the new dark eldar codex. We'll ensure the codex clear the mistake. Dismiss. "
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