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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Chain snares and reavers   Sun Apr 24 2016, 22:09

So I have a sad confession - in my whole warhammer career I have never done a tank shock - like actually never. So I am a bit fuzzy on the rules - I am sure I am missing something here.

It seems to me though that by surrounding a unit with something fast (like reavers) and then tank shocking it with the view to leave the raider directly over the unit in question you could wipe out a large part of a unit regardless of the success of the tank shock providing they didn't have a reliable way to death or glory the raider.

Legitimate tactic?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Sun Apr 24 2016, 22:43

Potentially, although in my experience it never works.

Far more reliable is using Reavers to surround a vehicle close enough that the passengers can't disembark when you pop it, and die trying to undo their seatbelts.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 03:08

Actually, I just looked at the wording on this, and that may very well be the dirtiest thing I've ever seen, based on the way it's worded. You won't be able to reliably wipe out entire squads with this strategy, but you could assassinate commanders and other important models situationally.

Let me show you an example:

Legend:
= : Reaver Jetbikes
- : Space Marine
- : Space Marine Captain
[^] : Tank shocking in direction of arrow

======
---------- =
[^]====

If you tank shock someone in this configuration, whilst not leaving any room for them to rejoin their unit on the right, the models under the tank would die if they couldn't move out from under the tank while both staying in unit coherency and staying 1 inch away from enemy models. You're not given permission to move other models in order to facilitate this. So they can't "make room" by scooting one of their other models over or something. This allows you to target and eradicate tough models without a save, or a roll of any kind, and is super dirty.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 04:50

Can't we use this against the super death star of the Space Marines and their psychic powers?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:25

Yes.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:27

So let's use it against those armies! We are the dark kin and we fight dirty!

Why do you think you can't reliably kill entire units with this?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:55

Because in practice, it's practically impossible to hem them in so tightly they can't move enough to let your vehicle past.
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 10:55

Well the idea would presumably be to stop the tank right on top of them.

The wording of tank shock is really confusing though - there is no priority given to any of the restrictions. Does moving the shortest distance take priority or staying in unit cohesion? Can they make an otherwise illegal move to get out of the way? (Like passing within 1 inch of a reaver).

Also does each model move individually or does the unit move as a whole? If individually you could leave a single gap near the unit where a model could sit 1 inch away from your units - then the rest of the unit would presumably all die?

Also can a raider pass over a unit of reavers and tank shock? It's hard to say cause the tank shock rules clearly weren't written with skimmers in mind. If they can then you could completely surround a unit with reavers and then tank shock.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 11:35

@Jimsolo wrote:
Potentially, although in my experience it never works.

Far more reliable is using Reavers to surround a vehicle close enough that the passengers can't disembark when you pop it, and die trying to undo their seatbelts.

Yeah, that's my experience also. Ive done the reavers surround vehicle, then pop it with shooting or said reavers, and passengers die thing a handfull of times but players tend to really spread deathstars out. Board control is a thing with deathstars.

Good idea but you couldn't rely on it happening very often.
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 12:17

@Jimsolo wrote:
Because in practice, it's practically impossible to hem them in so tightly they can't move enough to let your vehicle past.


I don't see why - if you had 9 reavers all turbo boosting in should be relatively easy to get a full surround - then flat out the raider into tank shock. I guess the real question is how is minimum distance defined? Is it minimum distance to be 1inch away from the vehicle? Or minimum distance to be 1 inch away from all enemy units and still in unit cohesion? Can they move further than their maximum move distance? Can they move through enemy units in order to do this?

What would happen for instance in this crudely drawn example?

The red square is a raider, the red circles are a reavers 2 inches apart and then blue are lets say a unit of space marines.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 12:33

I think they should be dead. I even think that you can encircle the unit completely with Reavers since you can just fly over them.

If they argue with cheese I would just laugh at them and point at the conclave thing. But I'd only do that to fight cheese with cheese!
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 13:02

@CptMetal wrote:
I think they should be dead. I even think that you can encircle the unit completely with Reavers since you can just fly over them.

If they argue with cheese I would just laugh at them and point at the conclave thing. But I'd only do that to fight cheese with cheese!

Having re-read the rules I agree that a complete surround is totally legit, the big issue of course with this is most targets worth hitting are going to have something that can make a decent death or glory stand against our paper vehicles.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 15:26

I don't disagree that it's theoretically possible.

But if you try it (and please do) I think you'll find that it almost never works out in actuality.
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 15:57

@Jimsolo wrote:
I don't disagree that it's theoretically possible.

But if you try it (and please do) I think you'll find that it almost never works out in actuality.  

I am struggling to understand what part of it doesn't work?

I can certainly see that there may be games where a possibility is never presented to do so - but given that all the units involved can move over enemies and friendlies and additionally that you can premeasure everything I would think that when presented with the opportunity it would essentially allow you to remove a unit without any saves of any kind allowed (except death or glory)
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 16:46

Well... Since tank shock is done in the movement phase we can't use the turbo boost mode of the reavers to surround the unit...
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 16:47

@Kehmor Keep in mind that a big part of the damage table doesn't prevent the Skimmer from moving. Weapon destroyed? So what? Shaken? Lol
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 17:24

@Kehmor wrote:

What would happen for instance in this crudely drawn example?

The red square is a raider, the red circles are a reavers 2 inches apart and then blue are lets say a unit of space marines.


You have to follow ALL the listed requirements simultaneously. And no, they can't move within 1 inch of an enemy model other than the tank when making this "shortest distance possible" move. So if you somehow had a tank that was less than 2 1/2 inches wide, you could make it impossible for non-jump infantry to get out.

See, in the picture above, between a couple and the whole unit would escape, because they are allowed to move the minimum distance to move out from beneath the tank while not coming within 1" of OTHER enemy models, and staying in unit cohesion. The first 3 or so would be able to move into the gap that the tank came through. If the tank's rear end stuck out from inside the gap, they'd all be saved because they'd all be able to move clear of the 1" by being outside the circle at the rear of the tank.

How you CAN get them with this is you have your tank stop on top of 4 of them, while leaving the 5th untouched. Because your tank isn't on top of the 5th model, he has no permission to move that model, which means the other 4 need to both move AND stay in unit coherency or THEY die. So the 4 under the tank would die because they couldn't stay in coherency with the 1 that wasn't.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 17:41

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


You have to follow ALL the listed requirements simultaneously. And no, they can't move within 1 inch of an enemy model other than the tank when making this "shortest distance possible" move. So if you somehow had a tank that was less than 2 1/2 inches wide, you could make it impossible for non-jump infantry to get out.

See, in the picture above, between a couple and the whole unit would escape, because they are allowed to move the minimum distance to move out from beneath the tank while not coming within 1" of OTHER enemy models, and staying in unit cohesion. The first 3 or so would be able to move into the gap that the tank came through. If the tank's rear end stuck out from inside the gap, they'd all be saved because they'd all be able to move clear of the 1" by being outside the circle at the rear of the tank.

How you CAN get them with this is you have your tank stop on top of 4 of them, while leaving the 5th untouched. Because your tank isn't on top of the 5th model, he has no permission to move that model, which means the other 4 need to both move AND stay in unit coherency or THEY die. So the 4 under the tank would die because they couldn't stay in coherency with the 1 that wasn't.

Well a couple things - first I don't think the tank needs to be left room -the wording of the tank shock rule makes me believe you can pass enemy units with a skimmer like you can normally - so you could completely surround the unit.


Your idea of leaving one model untouched actually makes this even easier. Demonstrated by this equally crudely drawn example:


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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 19:02

@Kehmor wrote:

Well a couple things - first I don't think the tank needs to be left room -the wording of the tank shock rule makes me believe you can pass enemy units with a skimmer like you can normally - so you could completely surround the unit.


Your idea of leaving one model untouched actually makes this even easier. Demonstrated by this equally crudely drawn example:



I highlighted the important part above. Under tank shock, it specifically says that you can't come into contact/move over friendly models, and that if you would do so, the tank shock immediately stops 1" away from said model. It's a part of tank shocking, so it doesn't matter if skimmers are generally given the allowance to move over other models. When tank shocking, no vehicle is allowed to move over or come within 1" of a friendly model.

That said, your latest drawing does indeed show the strength of the tank shock that I was referring to. It's a sort of divide & conquer strategy. It will also make people angry because there are literally no rolls or luck involved whatsoever, and people like to be able to blame their losses on luck. Expect to be labeled as "that guy" if you use this. You'll inevitably have to inform your opponent, "I'm sorry man, but you're not given permission to scoot that model over to make room." and things of that nature in order to make it work right. And people hate being told things like that.

By the rules, it will work like magic. But in practice, I expect it to cause a loss of sportsmanship points in tournaments and a general disdain from your fellow players. However, I encourage it's use as much as possible. It will lower the prevalence of the deathstar if enough people use this. Very Happy

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 19:29

I'm not sure that this works. He could simply move all of them out of the way, can't he?

Or wait. He can only move the models under the tank so he can move them, right? Why should any model die and even if the single model can't move why isn't only that one dieing?
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 19:36

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


I highlighted the important part above. Under tank shock, it specifically says that you can't come into contact/move over friendly models, and that if you would do so, the tank shock immediately stops 1" away from said model. It's a part of tank shocking, so it doesn't matter if skimmers are generally given the allowance to move over other models. When tank shocking, no vehicle is allowed to move over or come within 1" of a friendly model.

That said, your latest drawing does indeed show the strength of the tank shock that I was referring to. It's a sort of divide & conquer strategy. It will also make people angry because there are literally no rolls or luck involved whatsoever, and people like to be able to blame their losses on luck. Expect to be labeled as "that guy" if you use this. You'll inevitably have to inform your opponent, "I'm sorry man, but you're not given permission to scoot that model over to make room." and things of that nature in order to make it work right. And people hate being told things like that.

By the rules, it will work like magic. But in practice, I expect it to cause a loss of sportsmanship points in tournaments and a general disdain from your fellow players. However, I encourage it's use as much as possible. It will lower the prevalence of the deathstar if enough people use this. Very Happy

Okay I see the bit you've pointed out - must have skimmed over it before (no pun intended). I was looking at the bit that says:

"A tank shock is.... Remember, though, that friendly models still..."

It made it sound like the exception for skimmers hadn't been taken into account but I see you're right now.

This tactic feels very dark eldar esq and we are probably one of the best armies for it - tons of cheap jet bikes and cheap fast vehicles that can tank shock. I wouldn't feel guilty using and abusing it Razz It's not like dark eldar can't use all the help we can get.

@CptMetal wrote:

I'm not sure that this works. He could simply move all of them out of the way, can't he?

Or wait. He can only move the models under the tank so he can move them, right? Why should any model die and even if the single model can't move why isn't only that one dieing?

The one model would be the only one left alive because the rule as written states that models that would be left under the tank must move at least 1" away from the vehicle and keep unit cohesion and any that can't are killed instantly. The wording seems clear that you cannot move models not under the tank and that it is only the models moving that have a chance of dying.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 21:15

This trick was much more reliable when Tank Shocks happened in the shooting phase.

I'm not trying to pooh-pooh your idea.  Please understand, I always look to do this myself.  Tank Shocks work super well with Freakshow lists (Tank Shocking vehicles let you hustle a fleeing unit straight off the board, and the Ld negatives that the Freakshow brings make it much harder for a Tank Shocked unit to choose its own destiny).  

I'm just trying to warn you that it won't come up as often as you'd think.  Casualties to your bikes will prevent how wide a net you can cast.  There are tons of units you just never want to try to Tank Shock.  (Anything with a Power Fist, anything with a Melta weapon, anything with a lascannon, or really any unit that contains a melee or ranged weapon with both Str 8+ and AP of 2 or less...) Many units have such a huge damn footprint that it makes this strategy difficult. Completely leaving the unit no avenue of escape requires a great deal of precision that may be difficult to master.

By all means, bring the tools to make it happen, and keep your eyes peeled!  Just don't be super disappointed if it doesn't sweep whole units off the board game after game, is all I'm trying to say. Very Happy
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 22:45

Good points Jim, but as you probably know, I don't limit myself to DE only. You could make a list with this strategy in mind that would allow you to pull it off with much more regularity, using swooping hawks instead of bikes. The swooping hawks get 18" movement in the movement phase.

But you're right about the phase issue. If tank shocks happened in the shooting phase, this would be tons better.

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 23:43

I don't actually see anywhere that says you can't tank shock in the shooting phase - only that you can't flat out after you've tanked shocked. Maybe not rules as intended but certainly rules as written (unless I've missed a bit).
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Chain snares and reavers   Mon Apr 25 2016, 23:45

Good point RE the variety of units that aren't eligible for tank shock though - I mentioned that earlier as a weakness.

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