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 How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 18:47

On the geokenisis power 4 that allows you to shoot without LoS - just FYI that RAW means while they can target you without LoS they can't actually allocate wounds to you so the power essentially does nothing!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 18:49

@Massaen wrote:
On the geokenisis power 4 that allows you to shoot without LoS - just FYI that RAW means while they can target you without LoS they can't actually allocate wounds to you so the power essentially does nothing!

I think that'd be a tough sell to the player using it or a TO.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 19:33

I'm not saying that we are prefect, I'm just tired of the complaints. I get it. I heard it before. Can't it be expressed a little less fatalistic?

Anyway: I'd try some dirty tank shocking trick to counter that.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 19:56

Ill keep playing either way, worst case if people cheese bad I will just not play them.  The competitive scene was dead for me anyways because I dont desire to play a strategy like MSU (and dont own the req models).  This isnt an excuse though because I really would like to play competitively but in the current meta of half decurion half marine powerhouse deathstars, I honestly dont see a point.  Two weeks ago I probably would have payed league fees and joined a competitive league (one by me needed players) but with the new psi powers its like, whats the point?  Pay money to be disappointed every week?

Worst of all I know I am not unique in this.  I feel bad for the 5 people that need a 6th to be legal yet nobody want to join or the guy that wins the tournament seeing less people show up and having to face mirrors the whole time.

3 toughness for xenos wasnt the end of the world when we had superior mobility, but now days we cant even do that right.  What can you do against a 48" bubble on a 48" by 72" table!?!  I need whatever drugs they were doing while writing angels of death.

If you havent, dont look at the formations either.  They are cancer as well.  Talkin obsec  2+ fnp t5 models 5+ army wide FNP iron hands (possible rerollable saves). They literally gave space marines FNP and disintegrator cannons these past weeks.  Whats next?

@massaen  Would be hard to convince them, but on the flip side, if you want to go by raw, then the "move target unit by 18 inches" means they can simply move you out of play(off the board) and your whole squad dies.

Hell piss off your opponent and they can "accidentally" drop terrain on your models.

Edit: I cant believe that if you literally count everything we have that you can buy, including painting guides, suppliments, and codex's...



Less than half the psychic powers they have access too >.<
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 22:33

@Skulnbonz wrote:

But if you are honest with yourself, back when Eldar hit if someone told you that Tau would be able to fire twice in a shooting phase, marines of ANY variety will be able to charge reliably first round, space wolves could charge first round and still attack after they die, an army could have a 2+ cover save army wide for two turns, eldar would get BETTER, with a model dropping 2 hellstorm templates that rend and shred, etc... It would have been unthinkable.

Very true. I can't remember power creep of this absurdity before.

40k seems wasted drunk at the moment and its worrying.

A complete re-write is the only thing that could restore some sanity to this hot mess.

Note. This will not stop me playing DE with like minded individuals who also don't want to play Apoc cheese.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 23:38

Looks like the panic is already setting in...



I guess they decided to switch from a council to a conclave...

Edit:

Would a council even stand a chance against a conclave Deathstar


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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 00:21

Can we stick to posting content conducive to the thread and not just purely negative posts please?

Cheers - Cavash

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 02:06

Is there something positive to say regarding the topic from a DE perspective? I'd love to hear it.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 02:50

I was just thinking around page 2. This is the kind of thread that we've been missing. Every post these days is whining or fandexes and I almost never come to the site anymore for that reason. This thread was a ray of sunlight. A hope that this forum could escape the pure negativity that has pervaded it for a while now. Then half way down page 2. NOPE!

Thanks for killing the brainstorming that was going on because "how dare anyone try to think something besides complain".

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 03:49

Its still not bad. At least people are thinking and posting. This post is more active than the entire forum.

Its going to take weeks for the new rules to settle in and any FAQ's to be answered so its perfectly reasonable for there to be negative posts after the beating DE have already taken. Dont kill this forums ability to be a place of discussion. After a release like this it is unreasonable to expect a positive discussion from a dark eldar forum, however just because something is negative doesnt mean you cant learn from it. When making decisions do you only list the positives? No, that would be silly.

So far we have seen solutions such as:

More reaver shenanigans combo'd with tank shocks. Eliminate the enemy deathstar via unorthodox trickery (I like it! but hard to do)

Heavy coven style talos deathstars. (make the only target a super tough one)

MSU (meh I didnt agree with this, but including it anyways) In theory when facing a deathstar, they cant possible target/shoot/assault that many units a turn. Could work.

We also had a great discussion about our anti psyker stuff like crucibal (sp?) and what it might take to work against the new space marine psychic powers or how it might be improved with different rules.

Anyways that's where we're at now guys. (let me know if I missed something)

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 04:36

@The Red King wrote:

Thanks for killing the brainstorming that was going on because "how dare anyone try to think something besides complain".

Poking holes in people's ideas, and pointing out how it wouldn't work for whatever reason, or showing that the space marine setup in question has tools to deal with that "idea" isn't even close to "how dare anyone try to think something besides complain".

I'd rather not delude myself with a fantasy. If that's what anyone here wants to do in the tactics section, I'd suggest moving over to the roleplaying section of the forums. I promise not to interject tactics or reality into discussions had there. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 05:02

How many times does any variation of "our codex is bad" need to be said. It's been a solid year of these posts. The true fantasy is pretending anyone doesn't know by now. We know. We get it. Move on.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 05:09

What if the enemy conga lines his death star? Heard that this happens quite a lot.

Can we wrap the middle with Reavers and tank shock next to them to cut it in two and therefore kill nearly half of it? I mean, half of them isn't in unit cohesion anymore, right?

@The Red King:
Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 05:10

Or even better: wrap the end of it and tank shock it like sucking a noodle? (No pun intended)

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 06:46

@The Red King wrote:
How many times does any variation of "our codex is bad" need to be said.

I don't feel like that's all that's been happening. In a discussion about what tools we have available against whatever the new hotness is, you have to imagine you're going to get some lamentation that we can't do much against it when, in fact, we can't do much against it, right?

To say you don't want to hear people say anything that isn't 100% positive is to stifle the conversation completely. The thread isn't about a positive event for us. I'd prefer the censorship parade GTFO and let us talk about what we can and can't legitimately do without trying to be modern day babysitters of the world.

We don't need babysitters, we don't need life coaches, and we don't need people censoring our speech or telling us to ONLY have a positive attitude. I'll have whatever attitude I damn well please while following the rules of this site, and if people don't like it, they don't have to interact with me in said thread. The moment "The Dark City" makes a "positivity only" rule for forum posting will be the last day I'm a member of this community.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 07:19

People might still string/extend out in a line like that but I doubt deathstars will have to (with the amount of mobility they can have).  Scout/boost bikes and then switch positions, or use terrain, or just straight up teleportation.

This thread is more so about the psi so I wont get into the formations, but they have even more movement bonus.  It really is crazy.

With being able to manifest on what, a 2+ with the named character (sorry forgot his name) and the conclave would it even be worth running a seer council for the added warp charges to try and cancel their manifesting?

The podcasts ive been listening to have be saying 15+ warp charges for marines/Demons could become the norm.  

You guys think a council would help enough to be worth it?  I doubt we can generate as much as them, but you should have enough to cancel out a vital manifestation.

Also worth a read:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Psychic_101

A lot of people who might not have played psykers before will be playing them. Since we dont use them much its good to brush up on the rules, just to make sure everything is played correctly.

@betraytheworld +1.

I am also against censorship. Censoring us is only going to make this community smaller.  Negative/positive is so biased.  I haven't found anything negative at all in the thread(besides negativity about negativity lmao).  Even saying our codex sucks isnt negative, its the truth.  Pretending otherwise would be doing everyone a disservice.  What can we do with our sucky codex is the question!  I dont think anyone here is going to throw in the towel because GW yet again screwed us.  Otherwise we wouldn't be posting!

Look up the stages of grief and follow them through the thread lol!

Here is an example of a list that will probably be in tournaments in some form. Its pretty disgusting, rerollable 3+ invuln and 3+ fnp with 8 chances to get the psychic power that lets you switch places with another unit and the one other power. They make a good point in the video about hobby scores. Might be needed with possibilities like this.

https://youtu.be/xWeW0sBloNw?t=42m36s

Linked to time stamp, it was a long episode.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 08:09

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On the geokenisis power 4 that allows you to shoot without LoS - just FYI that RAW means while they can target you without LoS they can't actually allocate wounds to you so the power essentially does nothing!

I think that'd be a tough sell to the player using it or a TO.

Just trying to lighten the mood - show a little hole in the writing...

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 10:15

@WhysoSully wrote:
With being able to manifest on what, a 2+ with the named character (sorry forgot his name) and the conclave would it even be worth running a seer council for the added warp charges to try and cancel their manifesting?

It's 2+ rerollable with Tigurius (who also gets to reroll what powers he generates and reroll reserves, all for 25 points less than the cost of Drazhar). It's "only" 2+ for any other psyker in the Conclave.

Now that SM don't need Hit & Run anymore I think we'll see a pretty rapid move away from White Scars towards Ultramarines.

On the Seer Council, a minimum size unit generates 11 warp charges (16 if maxed out). That's nowhere near enough to deny Tigurius, especially as a lot of the new powers are blessings so we need 6's to deny vs 2's to cast.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 10:18

Yeah its pretty disgusting.  

Ah I see about the council, damn =/

have you used a culexus before?  I dont have much experience,  seems weak due to range but maybe a lucky deepstrike with a venom?

My other thought is design a list to beat the list that will fight these, but it seems like it will just be mirrors...

Edit: Void shields might be good as well. Ultramarines mean a lot of grav Sad bad for talos. Although should you lose your ground the enemy deathstar could use the shield! lol

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 10:20

I used the Culexus a while back against Grey Knights. He's certainly useful but trying to get him into position and survive long enough to do his thing is the trick. Probably the best option against this new level of psychic cheese though.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 12:03

@WhysoSully wrote:

So far we have seen solutions such as:

More reaver shenanigans combo'd with tank shocks.  Eliminate the enemy deathstar via unorthodox trickery (I like it! but hard to do)

Heavy coven style talos deathstars. (make the only target a super tough one)

MSU (meh I didnt agree with this, but including it anyways) In theory when facing a deathstar, they cant possible target/shoot/assault that many units a turn.  Could work.

We also had a great discussion about our anti psyker stuff like crucibal (sp?) and what it might take to work against the new space marine psychic powers or how it might be improved with different rules.

Anyways that's where we're at now guys. (let me know if I missed something)

What about WWPing in D-sythes, lots and lots of D-sythes. Fight cheese with cheese as i already mentioned.

D-sythes + MSU will be my approach and this is coming from a guy that avoids including eldar allies but hey, if GW are going to release bags of hot, wet garbage i may as well dive in and swim! Laughing


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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 12:16

And remodeling the wraiths as Castigators and you're good to go. I'm actually inclined buying some if I encounter this new cheese.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 12:32

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I used the Culexus a while back against Grey Knights. He's certainly useful but trying to get him into position and survive long enough to do his thing is the trick. Probably the best option against this new level of psychic cheese though.

I was thinking of the culexus too, as i mentioned before, but now i agree it would be hard to get him where you need him.

He can't ride in our transports and while he is walking this psychic deathstar is teleporting all over the table. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 12:57

Best use I can think of is simply to create a 12" No Go Zone for the Death Star. Maybe put him behind a Void Shield Generator out of LOS and create a firebase that the Death Star won't want to approach?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Tue Apr 26 2016, 13:11

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The moment "The Dark City" makes a "positivity only" rule for forum posting will be the last day I'm a member of this community.

Quoted for truth.

We all need to remember if we are posting in this forum, we all want the same thing... a good DE army.


As for the new powers / conclave issue... I am really kind of stumped. With the new Blood Angels rumors of assaulting from deep strike, I think an entirely new perspective has to be considered for Dark Eldar.

We are first and foremost an Alpha Strike army. We hit, and we hit hard. We are not tough enough to withstand an alpha strike ourselves, so we MSU and sometimes use reserve shenanigans to counter this possibility.

We sure as hell are not tough enough to withstand a first round multi-charge against our entire army. So how do we counter?

The assassin comes to mind, but not practical as he cannot hide in transports, etc.

Null deploy using a corpsethief to withstand the alpha strike is a possibility, but sadly the army that we are discussing has access to a ton of grav, which will wipe us off the board. A turn 1 tabling is not a fun game.

Mandrakes? Hidden in a corner somewhere? Not practical, especially if drop pods and flamers are involved.

Allied in skulls to restrict enemy scouting/ infiltrating is a viable option here, but desperate allies make me uneasy.

Dark Eldar need to become a BETA strike army to counter this. We are not designed as a beta strike army. Pretty much, allies are going to be mandatory, and I'm thinking Imperial Knights or the like that can withstand a first round charge and has "D" strength stomps to laugh at their rerollable saves.
Yup, a gallant lance and Dark Eldar coming in turn 2. If someone else has any valid ideas I would love to hear it, cause I'm struggling here...

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