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 How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 02:41

The Geokinesis 5 and 6 powers--do they have a type?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 10:41

The Red King wrote:
Problem.  Can't target the fort if it's dark eldar cad.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, and that claimed fortifications say that they can score, but never have a faction. If not clearly listed that way in the 40k rules, it's definitely that way in the ITC rules, which are generally only rules clarifications.

I just played against the new powers and conclave last night. Here is my experience:

Using ITC rules that limit a psyker to casting only up to his mastery level in powers per turn limits the potential of the librarius conclave. Without that artificial limit, they are indeed exceptionally powerful.

I "knew" going into this game that my opponent would be using the new psychic powers(knew as in, had a really good feeling he would), so I made a list that was far from my normal fare, primarily made of vehicles to try to mitigate the damage psychic powers could do to me, since most psychic powers aren't that effective against vehicles. It was a hastily built list, so don't judge too harshly, but this is the list I used:

Eldar CAD:
Warlock Conclave - 1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40 (Went in fast attack raider)
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102
3x 1 Hornet w/2 Pulse Lasers 240
1x Warp Hunter w/Crystal Targeting matrix & spirit stones 220
1 Wraithknight w/Ghostglaive & Scattershield 295
1 Bastion w/Icarus Lascannon 110

DE CAD:
1 Lhamean 10 (hid outside of LoS away from all other allies)
2x 5 Kabalite Warriors w/Dual Cannon Venoms 210
1x Raider w/Dissies 55
2x Ravagers w/Dissies 220

Aspect Host(+1 BS):
1x 3 Dark Reapers w/3 Starshot missiles & Exarch 114
2x 6 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch 212

I thought it was an OK list that stood a good chance against someone who focussed heavily on a psychic deathstar. Unfortunately for me, my opponent surprised me with his list. This is what he brought(I may have left out an option or two):

Imperial Guard CAD with:
1 Company command squad with 4 veterans, an officer of the fleet, and commander with regimental standard, vox caster, meltagun and krak grenades
1 Tank Commander Pask w/his Punisher and an attached Battle Tank, both w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons
2 units of veterans with vox-casters, meltaguns and krak grenades in chimeras
2 hellhounds in a unit w/Dozer blades
2 Wyverns
1 manticore
2 Sentinals w/Plasma cannons
1 Vendetta Gunship w/ 3 twin-linked lascannons

Librarius Conclave
1 Librarian in terminator armour w/force axe
1 Libby w/force stave
1 libby w/force sword
1 libby w/force maul

We played using ITC rules. We got purge the alien as the main mission, with ITC maelstrom objectives, which are scored at the end of each game turn.

He rolled the warlord trait that gives his warlord and 3 units of his choice infiltrate. I got the warlord trait that let's me hand out 3 pinning tests at the beginning of the game(woohoo useless!). He took plenty of the new psychic powers, with a focus on the one's that effect tanks/vehicles. I got gate of infinity as my sole psychic power. I won the roll to deploy first and go first, but declined and gave it to my opponent for the advantage of being able to score maelstrom objectives at the end of each game turn.(Possibly a questionable decision, but there was a LOT of terrain for him to hide behind, and if he didn't deploy on the line, I wouldn't be able to get my hawks to him.)

DEPLOYMENT:
He kept his warlord(Company Command Squad) in the vendetta in reserves and gave infiltrate to the Librarius conclave and both units of veterans. In hindsight, I'm not so sure he should have been able to give the entire conclave infiltrate, since they're not actually a unit until you deploy them together. But that's the way it was played. He chose to outflank the conclave. He lined the remainder of his forces up in cover along the ruins on his side of the table, but all pretty much fully forward on his deployment line. The 2 chimeras infiltrated forward along my left flank that had only my wraithknight, 3 windriders, and a venom w/kabalite's inside. There was a LoS blocking ruin that blocked sight from the other 80% of the table.

I put my entire force on the table because I was at -1 to my reserve rules due to his officer of the fleet. I spread them out and put them in cover as best I could. I placed the bastion centrally in an area that would give a cover save to the bastion itself from several angles, with the icarus lascannon on the top(so that occupants can fire it). I put my dark reapers w/exarch inside the bastion to be able to fire the lascannon at BS6 with an extra shot from the exarch's ability. Since he had deployed on the line, eliminating my fear of not being able to get to him if I went first, I tried to sieze and failed.

I was going to do a whole batrep here, but it's probably not the appropriate place for that.

To make a long story short, for the first time ever, I got tabled.

It was on turn 7(which started with me only having a single kabalite warrior left). If the game would have ended in turn 5, I would have won maelstrom but lost primary and secondary, for an overall loss.

My thoughts on the conclave: Still pretty much the same as before the game. With the option of 11 disciplines to choose from, you're virtually guaranteeing that your psykers will have the tools to deal with ANY kind of opponent. Because powers are rolled for each opponent you play, it's almost like being able to change your list from one game to another in a tournament. There is no rock-paper-scissors here with access to that many disciplines. They are the nuclear suitcase in the rock-paper-scissors game.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 13:38

Damn, turn 7 though, sounds like you put up quite the fight.  I was hoping for better news but your experience seems to be the norm.  There are even LGS's offering cash prizes to people that can beat the new psi Deathstars.

I dont know if people play space marines so they feel the need to defend it, but saying MSU was only affected a little bit is not the answer.  Poison shots you say?  do the math:



How many poison shots to kill that deathstar on average?  Can you even shoot that many shots in 5 turns!?

We have 26 options to fill our FOC.  They just added 24 new psychic powers to marines(which means they now have 72 different psychic powers to choose from).  We literally now have less options to build armys than they have options for ONE DAMN MODEL. They literally have more psychic powers than we have unique models in our entire codex.  

I wont even bother talking about how OP the actual powers are.

Now I did see something interesting, Can anyone quote raw rules on what exactly is "a peice of terrain"

GW doesnt seem to sell terrain, instead they sell scenery.  

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Scenery

In a game where such ridiculous rules are allowed and you begin the fight at a disadvantage you will have to watch every inch, every time your opponent measures, check every rule, JUST TO HAVE A CHANCE.  Who wants to play like that!?  half an inch here, half an inch there, and suddenly they are swapping units, moving terrain, and spreading various bubbles with diameters of up to 48" (literally from board edge to board edge).

I just want to reiterate that this is not a marine thing.  I would best describe it as more of an issue with power creep and GW's less than consistent track record.

P.S if you use a power that lets you move units or terrain, Let your opponent move anything that has his units on it,  this prevents you getting blamed should models fall out and become damaged.

Coulnt you even technically just move stuff off the board.  I hope they at least clarified that it had to be somewhere on the battlefield and not just in range of the psyker.


Last edited by WhysoSully on Sat Apr 23 2016, 18:34; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 14:46

If my math is correct I have a single poison shot at BS4 causing an unsaved would against the 3++ re-rolled with 3+fnp 0.004. So 0.4% of the time. (Stats was a long time ago, I multiplied the individual probabilities, was I supposed to add them? It seems so small)

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 15:07

so for every 1000 shots you take, on average, 4 will be unsaved?

In a 5 turn game you must take 200 poison shots all directed at the deathstar every single turn to kill it by the end of the game.  

12 per venom, thats 16 venoms shooting every turn at this unit.  Out of all of us how many people have 16 venoms?  Thats 1040 points of pure venoms that have to survive and target the same unit each turn.  Sounds inefficient and boring if you ask me.  

Warning my math might be wrong.  I am sure you guys are much better at mathhammer than me, but this sounds horrible.  Please someone runs the numbers in a way that doesnt give me anxiety lmao.

To me this sounds like our best bet is to ignore something that powerful, but can anyone afford to ignore it?  If not I fear poison is insufficient when it comes to dealing with this.

Marines even get more FNP than we do with thousands of ways to improve their match up via 72 psychic powers to choose from after knowing what you brought in your list.

There has to be something we can do.  I suggested packing up models hoping to be proved wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 17:05

They don't have 72 psychic powers to choose from, though. They have several disciplines to choose from, but to my knowledge the only psyker in the game who chooses his powers (certainly the only SM) is Severin Loth, and he doesn't have access to all the disciplines. (And they may have changed his ability to choose his powers in the last update anyway...)

In any event, playing a couple of games against the new powers seems like the best solution. You'll probably lose them. However, it seems likely that you'll be able to suss out some winning strategies against them.

If you can't, then why not ask your opponent? I can't count the number of times I've lost, and been unable to figure out what happened, only to ask my opponent what they thought I could have done differently, only for them to give me some very sound advice on how I could have defeated them. People love to play know-it-all, and if you do a little ego-stroking, especially when they're all pumped up from the ass kicking they just handed you, they're usually in a magnanimous mood. No reason not to take advantage of that.

After a few games, I'm sure a regular SM opponent of yours will be willing to share insights into the points of the game when you made what he thought was an error. You'll be able to temper that with your own knowlege of our capacities, and hopefully come up with some workable strategies.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 17:44

@jimsolo  Ultramarines have access to 12 disciplines with 6 powers each and can have enough psykers to make getting the 1-2 you need to combo fairly easy. (this isnt even counting the primaris.)

With access to multiple psykers getting the 2-3 powers you want to combo wont be an issue.

I am trying to make a point that its not the individual powers.  Other than the terrain/scenery thing, I havent mentioned one power.  Its not marines either, I havent mentioned a single model other than the ones that have the options to take these.  Its the fact that they get access to so many options after knowing exactly what models the opponent brought.

The issue at its core is that an army exists that can take a model that has more options to choose from at the begining of the game after he has seen my list, than we have models in our codex or options for our army.  One model, 84 powers to choose from (including the primaris) and sure you cant choose exactly which one, but you are also not limited to one psyker.  multiple high mastery librarians will easily acquire the needed powers for any situation.

Its not that marines got this power or that power and that its super OP, its that GW is turning warhammer 40k into a bunch of small board games that you happen to be able to play a larger game out of if you really wanted too.  It just feels like warhammer 40k is dead and we are just being prepped for 20 new marine based board games.



Deathwatch and Ultramarines get access to all 82 psychic powers. 12 disciplines, one primaris each, and 6 addition powers each.



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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 18:00

WhysoSully wrote:
Damn, turn 7 though, sounds like you put up quite the fight.

Well, like I said, I was 1 Kabalite warrior away from being tabled on turn 6. And since I went second, my turn 6 consisted of moving my warrior 6 inches and hiding, hoping not to die from wyverns at the beginning of turn 7. So I didn't do anything productive after turn 5.

The lone warrior almost survived though. The wyverns put 5 wounds on him, and he stopped all but 1 with armour + FnP.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 22:59

I wish we would get something good against Psykers. Like forcing a moral check for every unit in 12 inches and if they fail they are toast. Coupled with Armour of Misery and Haemonculus Covens, the individual psyker in the conclave would be deadsince they don't count as a unit of Psykers.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 09:29

CptMetal wrote:
I wish we would get something good against Psykers. Like forcing a moral check for every unit in 12 inches and if they fail they are toast. Coupled with Armour of Misery and Haemonculus Covens, the individual psyker in the conclave would be deadsince they don't count as a unit of Psykers.

But they DO count as a unit of psykers if they're all joined together in a unit. That's what stops our crucible of malediction from being any good.

If they each counted as a unit themselves even when in a unit together, the crucible would be awesome, and erase entire seer councils and librarius conclaves.

Honestly, if the crucible was just reworded to say "Each psyker within X distance" instead of "each unit that contains a psyker," etc then it would be leaps and bounds better. That's how it was last edition. Each psyker within range had to take a leadership test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed. Paired with our leadership debuffs, if they wouldn't have changed the crucible, it would have been amazing.

Unfortunately, the leadership debuffs are probably WHY they changed the crucible.

The biggest problem I have with hope for DE's future is that I feel like when they DO give us an update, they'll probably be using our current codex as their primary point of reference instead of our old one, and I really don't think they should. They need to scrap this whole codex and start again, using the 5th ed codex as their point of reference while updating for the current meta.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 13:10

Dont forget the extreme disadvantage we have warp charge wise as well.

We can run the webway but not generate a single warp charge... Makes sense huh. /s

It was a major culture shock going from 3rd/4th when I used to play to now.  Psychic phase was like stuff that happened here and there, not a whole phase AFTER movement.  When games workshop goes and gives an army more stuff in one week than many armies even have total, and many of which could actually use the help to add more variety to the meta (not even just DE, look at orks and nids hell even some chaos)  My last 3 games in my league were against marines all different people.  They were not fun and that was before the imperial space marine and all the new powers.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 19:47

Can't play it all at once though. So there's that.

i share the incredulity at the rapid fire release schedule, but not because its rapid fire really. I dislike for example the Black Legion book i had to buy, which was Formations rich but really didn't shift the balance of power. I love the artifacts from it and Chaos marine players NOT using them are missing the boat in a big way but it is true that the book seems like it didn't do enough.

Dark Eldar are competitive in my opinion, but i find the Psyker powers that just got released are going to be a real problem. Some of the strengths for Dark eldar are that they have enormous speed. This speed AS AN ADVANTAGE isn't one when everyone else HAS it, if that makes sense. It just throws what was once n advantage into the "meh, everyone has THAT". So then if speed is never to be considered a TRUE advantage in the game, the Dark Eldar suffer some mediocrity that they dont make up in other areas.

GW really should have looked at SPEED s the province of certain armies and kind of drawn a line and said "some shoot you off, some assault you off, some Psyker you off and some positionally dominate with speed, but no one should gte it all"

They chose to do otherwise it would seem and so its a new ball game.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 20:58

For a lot of armies, 40K now is basically what would have been called Apocalypse ~5 years ago. Sadly, not all of us get the same toys to play with.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 22:01

Helm of Spite combined with a wwp and various -ld modifiers. Helm of Spite only effects enemy psykers.

An Archon with said helm, wwp, shadowfield and huskblade (because your Archon has a really neat looking useless weapon) attached to as many farseers, shadowseers or warlocks you can fit into unit that will probably have to be on foot after arriving from deepstrike.

Harlequins, Grotesques, Ssylth, wraithguard, aspect warriors. I don't have models to playtest all the possiblities.

Perils on doubles combined with stacked leadership debuffs could potentially mess up a deathstars day. If you arrive after their buffs up are hope they perils attempting to rebuff during their turn.  

It looks like a serious points investment into a unit but, they would be protected from a turn one alpha strike. The idea behind it would be to have enough dice in your hand to force your opposition to perils trying to cast anything of note while still maintaining better casting potential yourself paired with good damage.

I haven't play tested any of this but, with good rolls on the tables we do have access to we could deal with it I think. The real problem would be to fit a unit like that into an 1850 list and still be bound or limited to three detachments and still have enough on the field to survive turn one.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 22:56

Only if the enemy isn't smart enough to move out of the 12 inch bubble.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 22:58

I was thinking more so creating something that would force your enemy to confront it.

Like a corpse theif, dark artisan, and crimson death. The crimson death snipes the librarians still have to make it through invuln/fnp but at least you can pick the model. Throw in eldar cad and a wraithfighter and you can D template their conclave and even snipe with the hole on the template.

They want to rush you, enjoy the corpse theif with buffs from the dark artisan. Should last you a few turns at least.

Sadly this would require you to have 7 talos models and even then you are still going to be at a disadvantage because your opponent can just dance around objectives.

Only other thing I can think would maybe be one of the best super friends lists the corpse theif/warp spider spam. All that hit and run might stand a chance in an objective game.

Just feels like we are becoming a CWE supplement. Our main codex formations are literally not worth taking anymore and the codex isnt even ancient.

Im just bleh, it just a crummy situation now with so much psi.

what do you guys think?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sun Apr 24 2016, 23:57

My plan?... Have a backup "fight cheese with cheese" list ready to go.

This will be your regular "casual" list but with a few added "cheese sticks" to keep costs down.

D-sythes unit with WWP or a culexus ass. or Extreme MSU with reserve manipulation, ect...

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 00:20

I'd try to surround them with Reavers and tank shock them. My tank survives death or glory and they are toast. It's dirty but what else should I do?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 01:23

In my experience deathstars tend to spread out... a lot... as board control and threat bubble is their bread and butter, and jam too!

This means that few if any would be trapped between the reavers and the transport. But if it works for you let us know all about it!
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 02:01

You could do it with different tanks to block the space they can escape to. Just park it on the death star after the first tank shock.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 02:08

CptMetal wrote:
@Skulnbonz ever tried less whining and more planning?

I find this statement very amusing.
Best DE at Adepticon (national Tournament)
Best DE at ATC (national tournament)
best DE and 2nd overall at Beakycon (national tournament)
first at Bolter Beach with DE (national tournament)
Best DE at Crucible (national tournament)
and more local tournament wins with DE than you can shake a stick at.

And you say I need to plan more?

No, no I do not think so. I think that what I said was the truth. Do not take my disgust at what our army is now as me waving a white flag. I just am not drinking the "All is ok, we are fine!" Kool-Aid.

What i posted is true. We are not a competitive army UNTIL MSU becomes a valid build. At that point, DE will be ok. Until then, We are like kids playing against adults. We just do not have the skill and tools needed to cope with what can be thrown at us.

That being said, my statement is for major tournament compatibility, NOT for fun games.
I go to national tournaments with Dark Eldar.
I see where we fall short and where we need help.
You saying everything is ok and we just need to plan better to be competitive is laughable.




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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 04:54

No. Not everything is fine. But just stop planning and start complaining doesn't change the result. That only leads to quitting and by all means: if you don't see any reason to play dark Eldar anymore stop playing and start Craftworld Eldar or corsair.

This mindset is just utterly alien to me, complaining and carrying on afterwards only to be able to complain even more. Why are you doing this to yourself? It must be exhausting and frustrating. That's not sarcastic or insulting, I'm just curious.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:07

Let's just remember to keep things civil.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:09

CptMetal wrote:
No. Not everything is fine. But just stop planning and start complaining doesn't change the result. That only leads to quitting and by all means: if you don't see any reason to play dark Eldar anymore stop playing and start Craftworld Eldar or corsair.

This mindset is just utterly alien to me, complaining and carrying on afterwards only to be able to complain even more. Why are you doing this to yourself? It must be exhausting and frustrating. That's not sarcastic or insulting, I'm just curious.

If everyone followed that line of logic, then GW would never be able to know that people aren't happy with the DE codex as it is. They'd do a google search, see no complaints, and just say "Whelp, looks like everything is good here. Moving on to moar space mahreeeeens!"


EDIT: This is assuming GW knows how to use google, which I have no proof of.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Mon Apr 25 2016, 05:16

CptMetal wrote:
It must be exhausting and frustrating. That's not sarcastic or insulting, I'm just curious.
What I find frustrating is that some people cannot see that with every new release, our codex gets that much worse.

We were the last of the toned down dexes. When Necrons hit, I thought it was a fluke, as did many others. Then Eldar came to town and we realized we missed the power curve by just THIS much...

But if you are honest with yourself, back when Eldar hit if someone told you that Tau would be able to fire twice in a shooting phase, marines of ANY variety will be able to charge reliably first round, space wolves could charge first round and still attack after they die, an army could have a 2+ cover save army wide for two turns, eldar would get BETTER, with a model dropping 2 hellstorm templates that rend and shred, etc... It would have been unthinkable.

But here we are. And while all this is going down, Dark Eldar have gotten squat. With each new dataslate or dex, Dark Eldar take another hit on the chin.

So what frustrates me is when people still defend DE saying we are "just as competitive", when we clearly are not.
I am not stopping playing the army, it is my favorite. But it sucks knowing I can bring almost any other army and have an easier go of it than I would with DE.

But then I am told to "Plan more" by someone who refuses to see what is right in front of him.
Fine.
You keep polishing that turd and tell everyone how great it is,
I will hope for a better dex, but plan on getting the shaft.
We will see who is right at the end of this. (and I hope it is you!)

Back to your normally scheduled thread...

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