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 How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 07:14

@WhysoSully wrote:


First psyker picks the type you want, then rolls for the power you want.  Either makes it on the first, or second,  and if not, then the next one picks the SAME and then rolls for it twice, then the next, and the next.  They do affect each other because you as a player only need one of them to get the ability.  It doesnt matter which one gets it.

Lets forget about rerolls and just talk about trying to roll a 6,  we will roll 8 times.
% chance of rolling at least one 6:
out of 1 roll:  16%
out of 2 rolls: 30%
out of 3 rolls: 42%
out of 4 rolls: 51%
out of 5 rolls: 59%
out of 6 rolls: 66%
out of 7 rolls: 72%
out of 8 rolls: 76%

Remember this is the % chance you will roll at least one six.  imagine 6 being the ability you wanted.  

With rerolls its even higher.  They will get at least one power they need almost every game.  Its probably between 76-80% chance to get the power they want but that gets a bit above my head with all the rerolls.

If they had only taken one lvl 2 psyker than it would be like you said only a 30% chance, but since they get to attempt that 30% chance 3 times (plus the lvl 3 psyker) the probablilty goes up.

@hydranixx  ooo you could combo the vindicare with a callidus for the ap 2 template wounding on 4's and then 6's in cc ignore invulns.  would also take some threat off of smaller units trying to take out the vindicare. Even better, 2 vindicares guarded by a callidus.

The great thing about this is that either the deathstar goes after the vindicare, or it hides in cc and you take out grav or pop the ridiculous amount of obsec rhinos they get.

So you agree its 30% then. You don't get 8 rolls - you get 2 per psyker and the chance of you getting the power is reset every time after the second roll. Yes with 4 sets of 2 the fact is that the chance of getting the power is higher but as the powers are not removed from the pool with each psyker, the chance per psyker is never higher than 30%. Thus with 8 psykers, its still not a guarantee to get the power.

I took 3 level 2 psykers for my harlequins and wanted mirror of minds so rolled on the chart with all 3 for 3 straight games at an event a fortnight ago - I think I got it once... and that's 18 sets of rolls. But that's anecdotal much like you saying you rolled dice at home and got what you wanted every time.

Yes, these powers are a concern and yes, with enough psykers your chance is higher to get it but I bet money anyone wanting to all but guarantee it will simply take tigurius as part of the conclave to maximise the chance. Its still chance though...

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 07:42

When these rules dropped I took it as granted that tiggy and a conclave will be on every battlefield, galaxy wide, in the 40th-41st millennium 24/7.

I think they will get the powers they want often enough that you will have to plan for it. Rolling Eyes

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 07:46

@Painjunky wrote:
When these rules dropped I took it as granted that tiggy and a conclave will be on every battlefield, galaxy wide, in the 40th-41st millennium 24/7

Marine players would be foolish not to. He basically casts any power known by any of the Conclave within 12" on 1 dice/warp charge with low risk of perils. That's on top of his ability to reroll the powers he generates and reroll reserves (plus a useful warlord trait, chapter tactics etc). Other than fluff reasons, there's no good reason not to take him.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 09:30

@Massaen wrote:

So you agree its 30% then. You don't get 8 rolls - you get 2 per psyker and the chance of you getting the power is reset every time after the second roll.

Ok, let's get this out of the way: 4 Librarians have an 81% chance of getting the power they want. Keep in mind that there are OTHER powers that they'll get too, so if they choose a good chart, they can automatically know they'll get other useful things too.

A conclave with Tigurius and 4 librarians has a 96% chance to get the primary power they want.

Independently, 4 Librarians have 81% and Tigurius has a 75% chance to get the power he wants. So if you are going for 2 powers on different charts, together they have about 61% chance to get both powers they're going for. If someone plays 2 conclaves, that will be enough redundancy to virtually guarantee a unit that has both powers, and often(~50%) have 2 separate units that have both powers.

@Massean You're right, any given librarian only has a 33% chance of rolling a particular power from a list. But that doesn't make the chance to get it 33% over multiple psykers. Just like it's 50% to get heads if you flip a coin. But that doesn't mean you have a 50% chance of getting heads on a coin flip 6 times in a row. Rather, that chance is about 1%.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:19

Does it really matter? Let's just assume they get what they want: how do we fight them?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:22

So question, Can they make this fearless? If not Harlequin DeathJester 1 kill cause them to run off the board? Smile

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:41

@mrmagoo wrote:
So question,  Can they make this fearless?   If not Harlequin DeathJester 1 kill cause them to run off the board?  Smile


Yes, if nothing else they can bring most of what they want from the Salamanders formation, which is fearless if they don't move in the movement phase.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:46

But they will be moving. If they don't move: fine by me. I'm more worried about achieving one kill for the jester...

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:51

@CptMetal wrote:
But they will be moving. If they don't move: fine by me.  I'm more worried about achieving one kill for the jester...

I know, that is a long shot. Smile I was just trying to come up with another option. Str 6 AP 5. Chances of killing is slim.

My 3 thoughts are:

DeathJester,
WraithGuard D-Sythes in Tantalus
Wraithknight

All are not great Options. Just decent ones. They all have their issues.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 10:57

How many points is that build anyway?

The more I see this topic the more I think it really is a problem for me and I forget that none of my friends will play something like that.

On the other hand: many switched to X wing and or Dystopian Wars.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 11:02

Which Build are you talking about?

the Wraithguard one?
Succubus 130
Tantalus 230
Wraithguard 210

Total 570
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 11:38

@CptMetal wrote:
But they will be moving. If they don't move: fine by me.  I'm more worried about achieving one kill for the jester...

No they won't, it specifically states 'movement phase', whilst the psychic power applies after that, as does any charge they initiate in the assault phase. They can stay perfectly still in the movement phase, become fearless, then get teleported across the table and charge whilst still fearless, and they will remain so until their next movement phase.

In any case, I'd be far less worried about this psychic deathstar charging a single unit than I would a Shadowstrike Kill Team from the Raven guard potentially charging three units of Vanguard veterans into our units whilst their demi-company ignores our jink saves.

http://theburningeye.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/angels-of-death-supplement-review-part.html

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 13:46

If I ever see this fielded by one of my friends, I quit to play x wing or Dystopian Wars.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 14:54

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

In any case, I'd be far less worried about this psychic deathstar charging a single unit than I would a Shadowstrike Kill Team from the Raven guard potentially charging three units of Vanguard veterans into our units whilst their demi-company ignores our jink saves.

My thoughts as well, but these are just a couple more nails in the coffin for the dark kin.  As stated earlier: I think we all know this particular coffin was probably sealed shut with the last codex.  That 7th edition release didn't even begin to address the existing issues dark eldar were having after 6th edition inclusions (like psykers and flyers), and I think most of us will agree that the "update" was a large step backwards.  In the end we received none of the gargantuan creatures, D weapons, and decurion style formations which other armies have grown to depend on.  The closest thing to any of those might be the carnival of pain, which... you'll literally never see anyone use.

And if you think it's bad now (and it is), it's only going to get worse with each new release - be it a warzone book or a stand alone game with 40k compatible models.

So... to try and get back on topic - If you want to combat the hottest new cheese?  Do the same thing we've been doing all along and just ally with someone better.

To be honest, I rarely check this board anymore, and have noticed other regulars have dropped off as well - When I do post it's almost always to recommend people just go play something else, whether it be another army (corsairs are the closest) or another game altogether.  There is really no reason to keep beating your head against this particular wall.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Wed Apr 27 2016, 15:16

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Massaen wrote:

So you agree its 30% then. You don't get 8 rolls - you get 2 per psyker and the chance of you getting the power is reset every time after the second roll.

Ok, let's get this out of the way: 4 Librarians have an 81% chance of getting the power they want. Keep in mind that there are OTHER powers that they'll get too, so if they choose a good chart, they can automatically know they'll get other useful things too.

A conclave with Tigurius and 4 librarians has a 96% chance to get the primary power they want.

Independently, 4 Librarians have 81% and Tigurius has a 75% chance to get the power he wants. So if you are going for 2 powers on different charts, together they have about 61% chance to get both powers they're going for. If someone plays 2 conclaves, that will be enough redundancy to virtually guarantee a unit that has both powers, and often(~50%) have 2 separate units that have both powers.

@Massean You're right, any given librarian only has a 33% chance of rolling a particular power from a list. But that doesn't make the chance to get it 33% over multiple psykers. Just like it's 50% to get heads if you flip a coin. But that doesn't mean you have a 50% chance of getting heads on a coin flip 6 times in a row. Rather, that chance is about 1%.

Thank you, yeah I got stuck on the equations once we started changing the probability on the second rolls. My 75-80% estimate was pretty close though.  Tigurius looks insane.

I think part of the confusion on this thread is people thinking its going to be hard for them to get these abilities and then wondering why people are freaking out about it lmao.

@massaen I think you got held up on the individual bit.  its not the probability of getting the power, its the probability that at least one of your psykers will roll that ability

@the_burning_eye @cptmetal Living saint celestine has been coming up a lot as an addition.  She gives your unit +1 involn save(3 faith points), makes the unit fearless, she is jump infantry, has a 2+ armor, +2S ap 3 weapon (which combos as a flamer), 5 attacks, has hit and run, if she dies comes back on a 4+ w d3 wounds ...  Its ridiculous.

Kicker is.... she is 135 points.

4 sisters, a superior, and a rhino: 100 points.

235 points gives them all that with two units being obsec.

Reading your review of the formation burning and damn, that formation is nasty.  That formation sounds like a DE formation if you take away all references to marines lol.

Now all you have to do is switch your deathstar with the scouted units, guarenteed 1st turn charge w deathstar.

The more I think about it, the more I doubt the type of people I play will use these beyond cheesy combos, and like we have been saying the best response might be to just pack up and not play. Tournament wise that is not a real option, but I think we are getting at something with D weapons/stomps/and assassins.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 30 2016, 02:54

The laughing god's eye from harlequins could help.

12" adamantium will bubble. Still need a reliable way of getting warp charges but it doubles our chance at denying the witch.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 30 2016, 03:28

@WhysoSully wrote:
The laughing god's eye from harlequins could help.

12" adamantium will bubble.   Still need a reliable way of getting warp charges but it doubles our chance at denying the witch.

That only effects powers that target you. Doesn't do anything against blessings or powers that target something else, like a piece of terrain.

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