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 How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 09:00

I have been reading about them the past few hours and I dont know what to say. Its above CWE cheese.

How do you guys think Dark Eldar will be able to handle the growing affect the psychic phase will have on games?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 10:00

I plan to wipe the enemy away with a biblical flood made of my tears.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 10:09

Nowhere near eldar levels of cheese.

Killing their psykers would probably be a good start, and with 2 wounds, usually no invun a dark lance to the face is pretty effective at doing that.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 10:49

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Nowhere near eldar levels of cheese.

I have to disagree. I think this makes Eldar look relatively normal! The new SM powers are utterly insane. The ability to move terrain, to switch units around and still move, shoot and assault is ridiculous. Space Marines now have better maneuverabilty than Eldar, better psykers than Eldar, are a lot tougher than Eldar and can probably match Eldar for firepower. Plus they have far better death stars, which can now move anywhere they want on the table and no longer need hit & run (so every SM army will be Smurfs, to take advantage of Tigurius).

Utter, utter crap!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 11:30

To be fair, Each of the disciplines has one over the top power and the rest are ok.

Each of them is unreliable to get hold of without tigirius or the conclave (and even then its not 100%) and its only going to be in conclaves these powers excel

The 'not fortune' power is very solid for marines in general and requires little in the way of army building to get the value from.

The terrain mover is good - but limited by the way it works

The swap units is bat crap crazy. Turn 1 charges with a unit in pod swapped for your super deathstar unit

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 11:40

Totally off topic I realise, but in terms of bat-crap crazy, I played a a game against Orks last night that included Buzzgob, a forgeworld special character that lets you take a near 800pt stompa for 300pts. Now I realise Orks need a lot of help at the moment but that's just insane!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 11:40

The thing that gets me most is that it's not like Marines needed any help! They were already a top tier army and this will just push them even further ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 11:52

Yeah the new Marine powers are beyond anything we've seen thus far. Ignore Cover, Ignore Line of Sight, Drop-pod Centurions + Skyhammer and a Librarius Conclave in support is going to be the new meta. That and T6 Thunder-Cav with re-rollable saves.

The only thing I can think of is allying in a Culexus, or allying in some form of high-powered interceptor platforms. Perhaps a Corsair or CWE Firestorm, a Reaper Exarch on an Icarus Lascannon. Or Tau interceptor platform.

Sucks really. The new psychic powers ignore so many core rules. Its like playing with cheat codes or a map editor in the case of the Geomancy powers.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 12:47

Keep in mind that those 65 pt ML1 librarians do have 4++.
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mika
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 15:14

No they don't Smile

As to the powers they are ok except that electrodisplaycment (sp?) but on the other hand, DE are mostly MSU so they do not care that much about a teleported 1000+ points unit that can assault and kill.....a raider.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 18:12

To those saying these psychic powers aren't OP, you are so very, very wrong. I had a chance to get a copy of the book last weekend, and it is far and away more cheese than eldar psykers have. Sure, they don't get ghosthelms or runes of the farseer, but their psykers get to choose from ELEVEN disciplines to roll on, and can manifest on 2+ in a conclave. They can also take terminator armour and storm shields for 35 points/model.

As for the powers themselves, every single discipline is incredible. Every power is good. No "meh" powers like hallucination. And YES, DE do care about teleported 1000+ point psychic deathstars! As a matter of fact, I tabled a DE player recently using an eldar version of this.

S4-S5 2d6 assault ignores cover nova powers are the bane of DE existence. With gate of infinity and no scattering, it's possible to take out an entire DE army with that combination in 2-3 turns, and that's precisely what I did.

As someone who plays TONS of psykers(I had between 20 and 30 warp charge at both LVO and Adepticon), I told a friend of mine I would probably be running marines after that book came out. There is nothing eldar now do that marines don't do better, except killing superheavy vehicles.

I'll have to look at the wording again, but I'm pretty sure other space marine factions like Grey Knights are able to use these powers as well.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 19:27

I think the frustration with these new powers is the same as with formations in general, and that is that we expect GW to be an impartial referee in our little games when in fact they are demonstrably not.

40K used to be a game about stat lines and dice probabilities. What it has become is a pay to play sales scheme where the latest toys are not simply better, but are built around literally breaking the rules that the game is based on.

What does the statline or cost of your marine matter, when you can slather him with ignore cover, twin linked, 1st turn assault, invisibility, 2+ re-rolls etc, and give him a free Rhino? This isn't about better or worse, its about broken. To play against armies like this is to just show up to play the victim while you attempt your 1/36 chance to actually wound anything.

Until they get around to breaking our army too, it will suck. And when they do break it, it will suck worse because it wasn't the idea of a invisible gargantuan creature Haemonculus that attracted me to the army in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 20:14

It's simple. Just give us D weapons. Maybe make the bomb on the bomber a D+1 or even +2. That would be prefect for killing those!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 20:20

I wouldn't say it's simple. I compiled a list of nerfs that happened to our codex from last one to this one. It was staggering when you looked at it all together.

I think they need to give us our old crucible of malediction back, among other things.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 20:31

CptMetal wrote:
It's simple. Just give us D weapons. Maybe make the bomb on the bomber a D+1 or even +2. That would be prefect for killing those!

I choked when I read this!
I'm sorry, but in no way does taking an overpriced AV10 flyer with a single "d" bomb going to fix anything.

Dark Eldar, my favorite army, the army i use at major tournaments and do very well with, is pretty much dead.
This is not a "sky is falling" post, this is reality. We can look at the army we love with rose colored glasses all we want but the truth is we are severely overpriced, under-powered and inefficient. Eldar, Space marines, hell, even freaking ORKS do better what we are supposed to be the best at.

For the first time ever, i am going to ATC with an army that is not Dark Eldar. After reading the rules, and seeing killpoints in EVERY MISSION, and seeing scoring is at the end of a player turn, It is impossible for DE to attend and do well.
Impossible.
We are to weak to hold an objective someone wants us off of. The stuff that is not too weak is too slow.


What should really worry people is not that the army sucks, but that other armies are becoming way too powerful.I mean ridiculously over the top, stupid powerful. There is only one way to fix this.. A complete revamp.
So those of us holding out hope for DE to get a new book on par with others (and i still am one of them) we have to begin to see it is not going to happen. They will have to revamp and rework the entire system, and soon. Like within a year, two at most. When the game gets too powerful, the game is not fun. When it is not fun, people stop playing. When that happens, a redo of the entire system is inevitable.

We are there now.
Truly. When during a game, you switch places with a model turn 1, before they even get a chance to roll a dice for anything, and charge and wipe out the opponents entire army, the game is broken. Period.

No one wants to play a broken game.


The above is just my opinion from years and years of experience. Take it for whatever you feel it is worth.



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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 20:48

First off we will get ours by the end of the year. At the rate they are bringing these out we will get one.

Unfortunately I have resorted to taking 5 WraithGuard w\D Sythes in a Tantalus, w\ Succubus w\WWP. This usually takes care of any Deathstars.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 21:53

@Skulnbonz ever tried less whining and more planning?

I'm aware that dark Eldar got the short end of the stick but this is a forum to discuss solutions and ideas not to spread such negativity.

What you are describing is a tournament Rules problem: every single game contains kill points? That's stupid because it propagates death stars.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Fri Apr 22 2016, 23:33

I'm supposed to be playing against this later tonight. I'll let you know how it turns out.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 01:53

For me its just demoralizing.

Can always just forfeit if they take the powers.  Should be motivation enough in friendly games for them to reroll.

I started back this year and have about 2000-2500 points of DE/CWE/Harlies and now I dont want to buy anymore.

I really dont like marines and it feels like 40k will just be marines vs marines forever.

We should band together all xenos and vow not to play against the powers lmao.  Would be interesting.  Tournaments become boring as all marine players are just rushed to finals and nobody would take it serious as the rules have become a joke.

Play marines, play only against marines.  Play xenos, have fun. As soon as that librarian comes out of the case, models go back in yours.

I feel bad for marine players because they are going to have a lot less xenos games no matter how you put it. I know I probably wont be playing marines unless we have some kind of agreement. If its a tournament ill just forfeit if they roll anything I see as OP.

Half the rules arent even very clear which means there will be arguments. I just dont get how this got to print.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 04:07

As soon as a librarian touches the table, pack up? For real?

I don't think this is going to be that big of a deal, seriously. Just from what I can see, garden variety Tau are more of a danger to us.

Librarians and other MEQ psykers are still vulnerable to massed small arms fire (like, say, Splinter Cannons) and still get IDed out from a Dark Lance.

The new powers offer some ugmo options, but no guarantees of getting them, and even with the conclave bennies, the Warp Charge dice will still limit the ultimate effectiveness.

I think this is a definite example of 'stop for a moment, take a deep breath, then analyze the situation objectively.' I think the DOs include reading these powers, staying abreast of rules discussions about what they can/can't do and how they interact with other rules, and seeing how other people are finding them on the tabletop. DON'Ts probably include refusing to play them, quitting 40k, or not learning more about them.

I personally am thinking about fighting a little fire with fire. Throwing a Fortification forward, only to have a boatload of Dark Eldar swarm out to assault first turn, sounds like a win to me.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 06:00

Problem. Can't target the fort if it's dark eldar cad. Can't enter the fort its marines. Or at least definitely one eye open risks. Any run of the mill crater will do though. Enslaved marines can target the ground you stand on for first turn assaults. And would make an interesting conversion with a chained up mind slaved librarius. Plus the look on the marines face when you say "I have tiggy too" and show him the bleeding slack jawed slave marine lol

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 06:23

@Jimsolo thank you! Finally a voice of reason.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 06:30

I know I go a bit overboard, but it just was not fun facing marines 2 weeks ago, and now....

"They shall know no rules" has never been more true.  Ignore this, ignore that...

I will just pray we get some codex support and GW realizes they just power creeped the psychic phase like its hot.

Look at these though:
Librarius:

1 – WC2, reroll armor save (psyker and his unit)

2 – WC1 beam, 20″

3 – WC1 blessing, targets the psyker. Gives fearless, AW. Give a 4+ invulnerable bubble of 12″…….. against witchfire power only.

4 – WC1 targets the psyker. +2 S, T, I and A.

5 – WC1 roll 2D6+ level against enemy psyker 1D6+level. On a draw or better, enemy lose 1W (no save), if you rolled way more than him he loses a power.

6 – WC2 1 enemy unit, 24″. -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone.

Technomancy
Primaris is a malediction, enemy vehicule at 18″. Basically takes control of one of the vehicule weapon for that turn. (roll 1D6 against your opponent)

1- WC1 friendly vehicule at 24″. ignore crew shaken, stunned and gives POTMS, or +1 BS if the vehicule already has it.

2- WC1 focused WF at 18″. D3 S1 AP- hits withhaywire

3- WC1 blessing at 24″. Gives back 1HP, or repairs immobilisation or weapon. Gives IWND.

4- WC2 blessing at 24″, vehicule unit. +1 AV to all sides OR non vehicule unit +1T.

5 – WC1 beam 18″ haywaire, S1.

6 – WC2 focused WF, 18″. Target loses D3 HP. For each HP lost, inflicts D6 S4AP6 rending hits to a nearby enemy unit.

Fulmination
Primaris: WC1 WF, S5AP5 Assault SIX

-1 WC1 blessing for the psyker. 3++ save.

-2 WC1 nova, 9″, S1 haywire
-3 WC2 WF, S5AP4 assault D6. Jumps to enemy units at 6″ of the promary target on a 4+. Same effect.

-4 WC1 blessing. Psyker only, +1S and A. For every hit the psyker lands in close combat (not wound, hits), enemy units suffer 2 additional S5AP- hits.

-5 WC2 blessing, 18″. Move target unit by 18″.

-6 WC2 blessing, 24″. Swap target unit with the psyker’s unit. Can work on allies and enemies alike.

Geokinesis
Primaris: WC2 Forces a dangerous terrain test without armor save, single unit. Basically it is a wound on a roll of 1? Invuls are allowed

1 WC1 blessing, 18″ gives back D3 wounds + ITWND for the remaining of the turn

2 WC1 malediction, 24″. Choose a point, it deals a single S5AP4 hit to each unit within 6″. This 6″ area is dangerous terrain. Crap.

3 WC1 malediction, ALL ENEMIES WITHIN 18″. They are considered to be in dangerous terrain, and cannot run, boost or flat out. Nice.

4 WC1 blessing, 24″. Single unit. Give MTC and Ignore cover to all weapons. Unit is also able to shoot on a unit WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT, only the range matters. Wow, great!

5 WC1 WC, 24″. Target building or ruin. Building gets a glancing or penetrating hit, ruins: units in it get D6 S6AP- hits;

6 WC3 24″. Move a piece of terrain by 24″, including models in it. (force a dangerous terrain test).

There is so much wtf in that list I wouldnt even know where to start. From 6+ T marines to teleportation nonsense to stripping what little psychic powers we could get via allies.

Maybe we can figure something out though. it just sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 07:41

Moving the terrain forces a dangerous terrain test? Nice to know. So it's possible that he kills the central units in his psychic death star.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?   Sat Apr 23 2016, 12:48

@Jimsolo you are an archon and a gentleman through and through. Yeah horde style DE have little to fear from a lot of this stuff. A lot of the scarier powers that allow Ignore Cover, Ignore LOS are bad for big units like Wraithknights, Stormsurges and Biker Deathstars etc. When you have 6+ Venoms and Raiders, losing a single one to Centurion unit of death is not a big deal. You pump 85 million poisoned shots into them and wipe them out the following turn.

Another thought when facing "ignore everything" drop-pod armies about using multiple infiltrators to go and hide in the enemy DZ. The benefit being they are not going to drop their pods in their own DZ meaning you can reserve the rest of your army and your infiltrating units holding the fort down till reserves arrive and they should go untouched against a pure Drop Pod army. Even if they have minimal units holding the backfield stealth and shrouded on those units should protect them. A couple of cheapy Mandrake units, Double-Dark Artisan formation could be helpful in this way too.

For the other scary powers like moving terrain and with Thunderwolves popping out of it, even if you have to feed them one unit a turn it can allow the rest of your force to fan out and avoid them.

I actually think against the terrain moving power, assuming they are in your grill turn 1, you could feed them a unit. Then perhaps with Autarch support walk on a Culexus out of reserves shut down all their powers, and then pour every shot you've got into them and try and remove the librarian.

Throwing up your hands and quitting is not the way. Just gotta think up some counter-moves.

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