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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 00:57

What do you guys think about separating the Heamonculus from the grots to create 3 -1 bubbles possibly 5 from one single formation? (non stacking though Sad )

Possibly even using him instead of a succubus as a wwp taxi.

I would obviously lose the power from pain turn bonus because I dont think any other DE units would go with his wwp if I use him like this.  I could also attempt to position him to rejoin surviving grots after his wwp.

Not sure.

Other option is go all out on the grot squads, leaving the heamy with one sqaud and throwing an autarch or farseer with the other unit.

I feel like with t2 fearless you dont really "need" a leader with them when using this formation.  Often in my games I find challenges from anything other than sergeants to be troublesome.  Even then my rolls often leave me like my last game where my succubus took 2.5 turns to kill a sergeant (thank god I rolled +1 toughness  on combat drugs or I would have been killed early, they were blood angels).
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 03:24

You're right--he's often completely superfluous.  If you've got a place to stick him, especially a place where he can serve as a taxi driver, then more power to you.  Not only will that spread out the -1 Bubble from the Grotesquerie (potentially generating 5 12" bubbles from a single formation), but it also opens up room in your transports for a different HQ to ride along, providing a bodyguard service for a psyker, or allowing another Leadership reducing HQ (such as a Corsair Prince, Shadowseer, Archon, or Succubus) to join up with the Grots, increasing their Ld dampening capacity.

I'm a big fan of taking two or more from the Grotesquerie, Scarlet Epicurean, and Fleshcorps formations, and then swapping the haemonculi around to maximize my Ld negatives.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 03:30

It's certainly an option, but I don't think the real strength is having the separate 12" bubbles; in 2 of the 3 deployment types, even one such bubble is enough to cover most of their DZ.

The biggest strength of playing the Haemonculus separate from his Grots is the ability to cut the regular DE CAD entirely from the list. All the Freakshow list usually wants from DE is the AoM, WWP and maybe the Archangel of Pain depending on one's meta.

The Haemonculus can take both the AoM & WWP for his CWE and/or Harly allies, contributing a -3 Ld bubble all on his own, while the Grotesques and Raiders provide -1 Ld bubbles elsewhere if they're needed too.

This saves quite a lot of DE tax - the WWP Archon/Succubus, and at least 2 units of Kabalites and their Venoms - which can be helpful if you're tight on points.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 05:56

Hmm, I think you might be mistaken, hydranixx.

A Haemonculus from the grotesquerie can't take relics from the standard codex. If he could, I would do precisely what you're suggesting, because it WOULD be very sound advice. Unfortunately the wording in the "Covens" book doesn't give you the option of using the alternate relics from "Covens", it demands it.


That said, to the OP:

I do think there is merit in taking a grotesquerie haemonculus seperate from his grots in many cases. I actually have experimented with doing so in a seer council -leadership deathstar. If you're allowed 4 detachments, you can easily get -5 leadership(Corsair mask of secrets, DE armour of misery, Covens freakshow, Eldar shriek), with the eldar possibility of causing an additional -4 with psychic powers(horrify +terrify).

However, I find that if you're only allowed 3 detachments, dropping the armour of misery detachment is typically the best. Even though it's -2 instead of -1, the 6 inch range limits it's usefulness.


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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 06:07

I use that tactic against non Marines. Throw two grotesques units into his face and deep Strike an Archon with Armour and an Archon with archangel and blaster and the Haemonculus into his face. Maybe add some Medusae.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 06:45

I dont think Covens haemonculi can take the AoM, actually.
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 07:34

That's why I said an Archon with Blaster and archangel and an Archon with Armour together with the formation Haemonculus in a WWP Raider.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 07:39

AOM and Archangels look fantastic but its so hard for the DE CAD not to feel like a tax with the coven formations and CWE/corsair psykers.


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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 11:13

Oh, right you are. No such items are allowed for Coven Haemonculi.

Literally all the Coven and DE characters and units are tax for this plan then.

Tax which costs you 545 pts

Which covers ONLY the bare minimum of 2 units of 3 Grots and a Raider each, Haemonculus, Archon with AoM, 2 units of 5 Kabalite Warriors.

Expenses only climb if you add transports, upgrades, weapons, a Wwp, or if you decide to throw in a Succubus with AoP... Obviously Grotesques are kinda good even as they come, but Kabalites are nothing without Venoms and an Archon usually wants at least a few items...

@Jimsolo has more experience using Freakshow than probably, well all of us. Do you reckon it's worth skipping Covens or DE or both entirely? Seems like Harlequins and CWE can do a decent job just with their own stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 11:31

If Harlequins didn't have such restrictive formations/detachments I would just take them and Dark Eldar, possibly with some Corsairs thrown in, and leaving the Craftworlders out in the cold.

This is the list I took to Warhammer World last year, which was Unbound mainly due to wanting 2 Shadowseers. I'd have liked to take more 'Quins and ditch the Craftworlders completely.

1875 Point Dark Eldar/Haemonculus Covens/Craftworld Eldar/Harlequins Freakshow

Formation - Dark Artisan (325)
Haemonculus (Warlord)
Warlord Trait: Master Artisan - Talos & Cronos reroll FNP rolls of 1 within 12”of Warlord

Talos
Ichor Injector

Cronos
Spirit Probe

Formation - Grotesquerie (510)
Haemonculus
Syndriq’s Sump

Grotesques
4 Grotesques, Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields
Steel Fury Upgrade: Vox Comms (Reroll Reserves)

Grotesques
4 Grotesques, Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields
Steel Fury Upgrade: Hasty Repairs (Ignore first glancing hit)

Formation - Aspect Host (339)
Warp Spiders
5 Warp Spiders, Exarch

Dark Reapers
3 Dark Reapers, Starshot Missiles, Exarch

Fire Dragons
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch

Unbound - Harlequins (185)
Shadowseer
Mastery Level 2, Mask of Secrets

Shadowseer
Mastery Level 2

Unbound - Dark Eldar (335)
Haemonculus
Scissorhands, Armour of Misery

Archon
Archangel of Pain, Webway Portal

Venom
Additional Splinter Cannon
Steel Fury Upgrade: Veteran Commander (+1BS)

Raider
Steel Fury Upgrade: Grav Wave Generator (Ignore Dangerous Terrain)

Unbound - Eldar (181)
Farseer Skyrunner
Spiritstone of Anath’lan

Windriders
3 Windriders

You can see my brief tournament report here

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Wed Apr 20 2016, 11:34

My heamy makes my grotesquerie a lot tougher. He's always out the front taking bullets to the face and LOSing them around.

Usually you have to get 3 wounds through in a single phase to kill a grot, well now you need 5, or 6 if i'm willing to lose the heamy. Rotating grots around and healing with IWND increases durability again. Cool  

As I keep him cheap, usually just the sump, I don't mind if he dies. In some circumstances I would rather him dying than a grot.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Thu Apr 21 2016, 02:10

hydranixx wrote:
Oh, right you are. No such items are allowed for Coven Haemonculi.

Literally all the Coven and DE characters and units are tax for this plan then.

Tax which costs you 545 pts

Yeah, this is why you generally see me saying that you shouldn't try to get both the armour of misery and freakshow rules in the same freakshow list. Mask of secrets is better than both of them, and most tournaments limit you to 3 detachments, so you're better off going 1harley/1DE/1CWE, or 1DE/1Corsair/1CWE, but 2 DE gives you the lower possible -leadership penalties while simultaneously having the worst possible performing "kill" powers from amongst those factions.

Count Adhemar wrote:
This is the list I took to Warhammer World last year, which was Unbound mainly due to wanting 2 Shadowseers.

An unbound tournament that doesn't take your actual performance in the tournament into consideration when determining winners? Haha, sounds awful!

Leave it to GW to ruin a perfectly good thing like friendly competition.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Thu Apr 21 2016, 07:26

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
This is the list I took to Warhammer World last year, which was Unbound mainly due to wanting 2 Shadowseers.

An unbound tournament that doesn't take your actual performance in the tournament into consideration when determining winners? Haha, sounds awful!

Leave it to GW to ruin a perfectly good thing like friendly competition.

They don't call them tournaments. They're gaming weekends or events or whatever. Pretty stupid but it perfectly illustrates why GW pays so little attention to 'competitive' gaming. They simply don't view the game in that way. If you ask a GW staffer at one of these events for a rules adjudication they simply tell you to roll off for it!

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Thu Apr 21 2016, 17:13

That's so silly. That means if your opponent is completely unreasonable and illiterate, he can dictate the rules of the game 50% of the time.

Fortunately, at such events, the rules don't matter anyhow. Sounds like the perfect event for a DE player. No motivation to win, haha. The winner of GW event is the guy who shows up with the most original/funny jokes. Very Happy

Of course, as with all things competitive, people probably recognize their most fun opponent to play with and DON'T vote for him/her because it would hurt their own chances of winning if they knew he/she was a charming/fun person. Favorite opponent awards are the most flawed award system in the 40k community.

I've personally resolved to ask for a gentleman's agreement with all of my opponents in GTs in the future that have them to give max sportsmanship score to each other regardless of the outcome of the game. I've actually had wierd situations come up where 1 upset guy over a ruling ruins your chance of winning a tournament that, by all rights, you should have won.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to give a negative sportsmanship mark without being able to justify why to a judge.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Thu Apr 21 2016, 21:46

The tournaments we run here in NZ give default perfect sports scores because we are a bunch of good sorts anyway. To not get perfect sports therefore shines a light on who has been a jerk for all to see.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:20

DEfan wrote:
The tournaments we run here in NZ give default perfect sports scores because we are a bunch of good sorts anyway. To not get perfect sports therefore shines a light on who has been a jerk for all to see.

This could absolutely be a good system, so long as people have to justify a negative mark against their opponent. I actually think it would be great if everyone started with a perfect sportsmanship score and in order to give your opponent a negative score, you had to go through a procedure after the game to report them that was not at all convenient for you, including speaking directly to a judge when you submit your report.

THEN, only people with real, serious complaints would likely bother. And I believe people with real, serious complaints SHOULD have a way to report those complaints. But it shouldn't be a circle or checkbox on your scoresheet for the match. The temptation is too strong for some immature people to resist marking an opponent bad just because they lost. It's like an impulse buy of something you didn't really need, except in this case it was an impulse mark that you didn't really mean.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:32

Quote :
@Jimsolo has more experience using Freakshow than probably, well all of us. Do you reckon it's worth skipping Covens or DE or both entirely? Seems like Harlequins and CWE can do a decent job just with their own stuff.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but Adhemar is pretty experienced too.

Personally, I think the Codex Dark Eldar can stay at home if you don't want to include them. For my part, I virtually never leave out the Covens, though. The Dark Artisan, Corpsethief Claw, and Grotesquerie formations are just too great, both from a unit perspective and a Freakshow specific perspective. I don't think they're absolutely required, but the Covens supplement is usually the core of any of my Freakshow lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 02:31

@jimsolo Have you played the freakshow at any GTs Jim? If so, how did you do?

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 05:24

I have not. I live in BF Egypt, where GTs don't happen so much.

I've run them at a few local competitive events and did okay. So far with Freakshow lists I've finished first twice and second once. (In the interests of fairness, at the event where I came in second, I went 2-1, and only won the first two games because of the time limit. If those games had been played to regulation length, I would have lost the first on Objectives in turn 6, and been tabled in the second.)

I'm confident someone could do a Freakshow at a GT and do fairly well for themselves, but unfortunately I can't speak from firsthand experience.

Which reminds me, if anyone is going to be at Gencon this year and wants to get a pickup game in with me, let me know! I should have both models and terrain with me!
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 05:41

Sadly I feel the biggest limiting factor on this not being a widely used strategy is the 3 detachment limit.  It frustrates me cause there is no rhyme or reason to detachments yet they are being used as a measuring tool.  Points are pretty bad too but not as bad as detachments when it comes to measuring an army.

As a returning player it completely turns me off of competitive play.  Already turned down a league that needed players to be legit because they had a 3 detachment limit.   (nova or something?)

Part of it is because as DE we have crap formation but part of it is also how ridiculous formation are to me as someone coming back from 3rd/4th edition.

Everything needs to be allowed or ban specific abusable formation and move on.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 05:50

They're going to give everyone decurion-style detachments. It's just a process getting there. I just read recently that there is a rumor they'll be doing a campaign book in september with blood angels, tyranids, grey knights and orks, which covers all of the factions that were released pre-decurion except ours. Ours will likely be slightly before or after that. Just a guess based on prior rumors that I heard we'd get a new book in the second half of 2016.

PS: Does anyone else despise the fact that there are English spellings of words and American English spellings? When I was growing up in the US, I was taught proper English spelling and grammar, then at some point in my early adulthood, things seemed to shift to where the proper "English" spelling was no longer considered correct here, and they use their own spellings only. Example words:

Realise vs Realize, Rumour vs Rumor, Armor vs Armour, Theatre vs Theater, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 07:15

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
PS: Does anyone else despise the fact that there are English spellings of words and American English spellings?

Just, oh, pretty much every English person!

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 12:41

How long ago were you taught English?
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 18:27

I was in grade-school in the mid-late eighties, early nineties.

But realise that there were no national standards outside of high school proficiency tests until very recently. The "common core" that you hear people talk about is actually a move towards more uniform education between states. Prior to that, each state had complete autonomy to choose their own curriculum. In my state(Ohio), each district was able to control their own curriculum.

So the small, rural school I went to that taught me actual English instead of American English wasn't necessarily teaching the same thing as a school an hour away in the city. As a matter of fact, I moved to the city between grade school and junior high, and found myself 2 years ahead of everyone else. All the things they were learning when I moved there, I had learned 2 years/grades prior.

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PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie and Freakshow tactics.   Fri Apr 22 2016, 23:47

I figured as much. (We went to school at the same time.) Did you go to a school where the administration (or the bulk of the teaching staff) were from a commonwealth country, by chance? I don't think I've ever heard of an American school telling children that the British spellings were correct and American ones weren't.

There is a common misconception amongst writers that American spellings are recent, "dumbed down" versions of English spellings. For the vast majority of spellings, both variants have their roots in the Greek, Latin, or French that their English version was stolen from.

It's hard to characterize 'British spellings' and 'American spellings' as two unified issues, since each convention has its own history. (For instance, in the case of 'ise' vs 'ize' spellings, the American version is the older version, rooted etymologically in Greek and Latin, while the British version is a more recent import from French spellings.)

Really, every writing professional, (or English educator) that I know of takes the line that as long as you maintain consistency within each convention in any given document, it doesn't really matter. The only time it makes sense to make a big deal out of it is when it comes to words that are different between their British and American versions (dependant and dependent, f'rex).

Some cool additional history on the various conventions: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences
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