HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
CanadianMecha
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2015-09-18

PostSubject: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Tue Apr 19 2016, 22:09

Hello, Hello

I've recently get my hands on the imperial armor 11:doom of mymeara (special thanks to  Korazell Wink ) and I have been really excited about what could Corsair do. So I don't feel bad about putting together an army of mixed eldar since I found space elves cool who ever they are and for what ever reasons they fight. This is what I've come to:

Dark eldar CAD (561 pts)

• HQ
Archon : Blaster, clone field, webway portal
  Total : 130 pts

• TROOPS
Kabalite warriors : 5 men, blaster inside a venom 2 splinter cannons
  Total : 120 pts

Kabalite warriors : 5 men, blaster inside a venom 2 splinter cannons
  Total : 120 pts

• FAST ATTACKS
Reavers : 6 men, 2 clusters caltrops
  Total : 126 pts

Venom : 2 splinter canons
  Total : 65 pts

Corsairs fleet raiding compagny (780 pts)

Command crew
• HQ
Corsair prince cloud dancer: void sabre, forceshield,
  Total : 120 pts

Primary coterie (Titan breaker *prefered enemy vehicule and walker)

• HQ
Corsair Baron : forceshield, jet pack, fusion pistol (link with reaver band scouad)
  Total : 65 pts

• TROOPS
Corsair reaver band : 5 men, 2 fusion guns, jet pack, felarch
  Total : 100 pts

Corsair cloud dancer band : 3 felarch, 3 dark lance
  Total : 150 pts

• HEAVY SUPPORT
Corsair balestrike band : 5 men, 5 eldar missile launcher, jet pack
Total : 200 pts

Secondary coterie (Hate bringers *Hatred against chosen unit if kill 1 extra VP)

• HQ
Corsair Baron : forceshield, jet pack
  Total : 45 pts

• TROOPS
Corsair reaver band : 5 men, 2 blasters, jet pack, felarch
  Total : 100 pts

Craft world eldar allied detachment  (441pts)

• HQ
Autarch skyrunner : shard of Anaris, banshee mask
  Total : 130 pts

• TROOPS
Windriders : 3 men, 3 scatter lasers
  Total : 81 pts

• ELITE
Howling banshees : 5 men, exarch executionner
  Total : 85 pts

• HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraithlord : ghost glaive, brigth lance
Total : 145 pts

This make for a total of 1782 pts (68pts left)

The plan is to have a blob of jet bikes (6 reavers+prince+autarch) to move around and attack enemy key unit. While my Titan breaker reaver band (2 fusion gun+fusion pistol hold by the felarch) are deepstrike ,by the help of my archon, behind an enemy menacing vehicule. The hate bringers coterie will mostly be going to select a vehicule as their dedicated target to try to make a 2 pts first blood with the help of my deepstriking reaver band. The wraithlord and banshees are their to counter assault any alpha strike (also I need banshees for conversion reasons Razz ). The rest of the list is pretty straightforward.

I've got a couple of interrogation to what special rules/equipment to add to my prince (I was thinking about the drugs but...) and also what to do with 68 pts left (one of the option I've think about was adding a felarch to my balestrike band equip with eldar missile launcher and a jet pack but that still left me with 23 pts...)

So I looking forward any comments or tips on this list (especially the corsair part Razz)

thanks in advance Very Happy
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Wed Apr 20 2016, 05:23

Hmm, where to begin...To start with, I feel like you're overspending on things that don't necessarily produce the result you're looking for.

For instance, while I love the "hate bringers" VP rule too, you're paying a 45 point tax to take it in the additional baron that will bring nothing to the game for you. That's almost the cost of an entire reaver squad. If you were taking it for more of the other available slots, like you needed more troops/elite/heavy slots anyhow, I could totally understand taking it. But taking an entire additional coterie, paying the HQ tax to only get the hate bringers rule is excessive, I think. Also, a single cloud dancer with a dark lance costs 40 points. That's 120 points for the whole unit. For the same price(125), you could get a triple-lance ravager that is far more resilient with the same offensive firepower.

Secondly, this list isn't SUPER low model count, but it's certainly below average, I think, at 1850 points, and you don't have any readily identifiable "anvil" units that can take a beating while your hammers do their work.

To draw a parallel, my Eldar deathstar list that I ran at LVO and Adepticon has an 850 point seer council-based deathstar in it, and I STILL had more models than you have in this list without a proper deathstar. I also had a wraithknight and T7 artillery to soak up firepower. I'd probably rearrange some points and such to pay for a wraithknight.

Finally, one other thing I'd consider to make your semi-deathstar a bit more surviveable is to stick a shimmershield into the unit that you're putting your prince and autarch in so that if you come up against grav spam with ignores cover, they don't erase that entire unit in one go. Maybe take a void dreamer with the shimmershield, since you already have the shard of anaris on the autarch. The shard of anaris will make the unit fearless, thereby nullifying 5/6 of the corsair perils of the warp table too.

Good luck and let us know what you come up with!

_________________
Back to top Go down
CanadianMecha
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2015-09-18

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Wed Apr 20 2016, 12:47

thank for the anwser Smile

the reason why I have choosen cloud dancer over a ravager it's because they are so much more mobile compare to a ravager forces to move 6'' to shot 3 shots so that why i'll keep them Razz

Also I'll post the update with your advice soon Very Happy
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Thu Apr 21 2016, 00:28

They aren't really "so much more mobile" though. Sure, they can move 12" and fire 3 weapons at BS4 instead of firing 2 at BS4 and snapfiring another one, but they can both flat out across the whole table. And how far do you really need to move a weapon platform that has 36" range?

3 AV11 hullpoints is certainly worth whatever you lose in mobility, in my opinion.

But good luck with your army either way!

_________________
Back to top Go down
hydranixx
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 466
Join date : 2013-11-26

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Thu Apr 21 2016, 06:33

I like Ravagers too, but ultimately I think Cloud Dancers are still better platforms for Dark Lances. The access to Reckless Abandon and Jet bike moves, not to mention firing all 3 Lances after 12" movement, is pretty damn good.

Ravagers are immune to Bolters, but with open topped and only 11/11/10, they either die like flies to mid ranged firepower, or they jink and forfeit shooting. I like not having to jink automatically whenever something S6 shoots at my Dark Lance platforms, so for my 120 pts, I pick the Cloud Dancers every time.

With the proliferation of ignores cover weaponry, the disparity seems even worse for Ravagers, as the Bikers natural 3+ armour save helps out a lot against serpent shields, nova cannons, accelerator autocannons, Markerlights etc.

I think we all know that a 'better' unit than both is the Hornet, of course, which tackles any target that isn't a Land Raider nicely.

And which your list is sadly lacking, @CanadianMecha.

Hornet's really are a gem in the Corsair and Eldar codex. I think you need to cut 2 Felarch's from the Cloud Dancers as they don't need 3 sources of higher Ld, and reconsider your Balestrike weaponry. They're really expensive EML platforms, when you consider they're only T3 with a 4+. Don't forget you have access to EMLs on both Wasps & Falcons if you really want them.

Consider spending more points on a single unit of Reavers, but making them more reliable at their job. Because they get 2 special weapons per 5, having 10 in a unit allows for 4 Fusion Guns or Blasters and isn't a waste of bodies as it with, say 10 Kabalites, who can still only buy 1 Blaster Mad . They have access to a lot of upgrades that cost the same regardless of unit size, which is really awesome when you're stacking 10+ Reavers together.

Examples include shimmershields, void hardened armour, drugs, grenades, and, Ld boosters like Felarch's or Barons. The more models are in the unit, the more the value of the increased Ld helps out, which is VERY significant for Corsairs, with rallying weaknesses and no access to Fearless.

So realistically, you can play one of your Coteries with a single unit of 10 Reavers and your other coterie with the 3 Cloud dancers, each with a Baron to help the unit. That way your 'baron tax' makes more sense and they do more for you.

Also, drop the fusion pistol as the range to make it work is disgusting and it's way over priced.

_________________
"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Thu Apr 21 2016, 17:29

@hydranixx wrote:
I like Ravagers too, but ultimately I think Cloud Dancers are still better platforms for Dark Lances. The access to Reckless Abandon and Jet bike moves, not to mention firing all 3 Lances after 12" movement, is pretty damn good.

Again, with 36" range, movement is almost a non-issue. You do realize that with 36" range, you can cover the entire table without ever moving if you're parked in the middle, right? So as long as you're not off in some back corner, you never really have to move.

And unlike cloud dancers, the ravager doesn't automatically lose a dark lance every time it loses a hullpoint. Further, beyond simply "being immune to bolter fire", ravagers are simply more resilient vs just about everything. S6 shots vs cloud dancers wound on 2s, while they need 5s to glance a ravager.

_________________
Back to top Go down
hydranixx
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 466
Join date : 2013-11-26

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:00

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Further, beyond simply "being immune to bolter fire", ravagers are simply more resilient vs just about everything. S6 shots vs cloud dancers wound on 2s, while they need 5s to glance a ravager.

To be fair, I still get my 3+ save, so there's still the exact same 33% chance of damage to my bikers as there is to glance the ravager.

The ability for the bikes to move, shoot and move back behind cover, ALONE, is a significant advantage over the Ravager. That they are also Objective Secured and have literally double the turbo boost move of the Ravager is just icing on the top.

_________________
"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
Back to top Go down
CanadianMecha
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2015-09-18

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:23

So this is the update I've come to after some reconsideration. (sorry @hydranixx still no hornets they just too expensive for me with the exchange rate Razz also what makes them that good ?! )

Dark eldar CAD (441pts)
• HQ
Court of the archon : Lhamaen
Total : 10 pts

• TROOPS
Kabalite warriors : 5 men, blaster inside a venom 2 splinter cannons
Total : 120 pts

Kabalite warriors : 5 men, blaster inside a venom 2 splinter cannons
Total : 120 pts

• FAST ATTACKS
Reavers : 6 men, 2 clusters caltrops
Total : 126 pts

Venom : 2 splinter canons
Total : 65 pts

Corsairs fleet raiding compagny (635pts)
Command crew
• HQ
Corsair prince cloud dancer: void sabre, shimmershield,
Total : 125 pts

Primary coterie (Titan breaker *prefered enemy vehicule and walker)
• HQ
Corsair Baron : forceshield, jet pack,
Total : 45 pts

• TROOPS
Corsair reaver band : 5 men, 2 fusion guns, jet pack, felarch
Total : 100 pts

Corsair cloud dancer band : 3 felarch, 3 dark lance
Total : 150 pts

• HEAVY SUPPORT
Corsair balestrike band : 5 men, 5 eldar missile launcher, jet pack
Total : 200 pts


Craft world eldar allied detachment  (736pts)
• HQ
Autarch skyrunner : shard of Anaris, banshee mask
Total : 130 pts

• TROOPS
Windriders : 3 men, 3 scatter lasers
Total : 81 pts

• ELITE
Howling banshees : 5 men, exarch executionner
Total : 85 pts

• HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraithlord : ghost glaive, brigth lance
Total : 145 pts

• LORD OF WAR
Wraithknight : (actually having no idea about how to equip this dude Razz )
Total : 295 pts


So I've added a wraithknight to have an actual anvil like @BetrayTheWorld have suggested, switch my archon to a cheaper lhamean and I have remove the hate bringers coterie

I love 3 felarch cloud dancers because it upgrade them to B.S 5 wich mean hit on 2+ (rerolling because of the coterie). Also I would love to upgrade my reaver scouad to a 10 men 4 fusion guns but I do not know what to remove. I don't want to remove the balestrike band because it seems so much fun to play with...just a devastator scouad harrasing and jumping around I cannot say no too such thing Very Happy and like I said I was counting on the banshee for some conversion...

So any feedbacks ?
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:29

@hydranixx wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Further, beyond simply "being immune to bolter fire", ravagers are simply more resilient vs just about everything. S6 shots vs cloud dancers wound on 2s, while they need 5s to glance a ravager.

To be fair, I still get my 3+ save, so there's still the exact same 33% chance of damage to my bikers as there is to glance the ravager.

It's not the same because you have a 0% chance of improving that save, whereas a ravager can simply be in cover, and immediately be twice as resilient as you while not losing a lance every time it loses a hullpoint.

A bike squad takes 2 wounds, and you've basically lost 2/3's of it's offensive effectiveness(80 points of value). A ravager takes 2 hullpoints, yet it still has 100% of it's offensive firepower.

And to be honest, moving in and out of cover triggers dangerous terrain tests for the bikes anyhow. And without skilled rider, who wants to take those every turn? The movement is a moot point in my mind, compared to the added surviveability of the ravager. Seems like we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree. Wink

_________________
Back to top Go down
CanadianMecha
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2015-09-18

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 01:34

pretty much...it's like venom vs raider Razz
Back to top Go down
hydranixx
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 466
Join date : 2013-11-26

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 02:10

@CanadianMecha wrote:
So this is the update I've come to after some reconsideration. (sorry @hydranixx still no hornets they just too expensive for me with the exchange rate Razz also what makes them that good ?! )

Well, they shoot 4 S8 AP2 shots (2 Pulse Lasers), which is more than your Cloud Dancers do, and they are also cheaper as well. For the price of your cloud dancer band and 10 spare points, I can buy 2 Hornets, which shoot 5 more S8 AP2 shots.

Sadly, yeah they're a little bit expensive Mad

@CanadianMecha wrote:
Corsair cloud dancer band : 3 felarch, 3 dark lance
Total : 150 pts

I love 3 felarch cloud dancers because it upgrade them to B.S 5 wich mean hit on 2+ (rerolling because of the coterie).

If I recall correctly, Felarchs get +1 to WS, not +1 to BS. Still, with BS4 & Preferred Enemy, you should be hitting with all 3 Lances most of the time.[/quote]

@CanadianMecha wrote:
Corsair balestrike band : 5 men, 5 eldar missile launcher, jet pack
Total : 200 pts

I don't want to remove the balestrike band because it seems so much fun to play with...just a devastator scouad harrasing and jumping around I cannot say no too such thing

It's definitely going to be fun to use, I agree. With Preferred Enemy, they'll do a decent job of stripping hull points. Just a pity they aren't AP2.

@CanadianMecha wrote:
Wraithknight : (actually having no idea about how to equip this dude Razz )
Total : 295 pts

He's fine as he comes standard, with the 2 big Wraith guns. He's going to soak a lot of attention and incoming fire, so the rest of your units can get away relatively unscathed. Good choice here!

As for your Banshees in the Venom, I think they're good enough to be a small harassment unit and clearing out MEQ if you need it. Keep them near the Wraightknight I think, so they can remove units like meltabomb veterans and such that the Wraightknight doesn't want to fight in combat.


@BetrayTheWorld Some shots will kill Jetbikes, I realise that. But I'm not sure why you're completely skipping over the penetration table that severally hampers, if not outright destroys, the Ravager, reducing that "100% offensive firepower" quite drastically. At least half of the S6 shots we discuss will be penetrating it as well. Besides which, Jetbikes can get an increased save with IC's tanking on a 2++ rerollable if we really want it, so we can improve our save.

_________________
"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 02:23

@hydranixx wrote:

@BetrayTheWorld Some shots will kill Jetbikes, I realise that. But I'm not sure why you're completely skipping over the penetration table that severally hampers, if not outright destroys, the Ravager, reducing that "100% offensive firepower" quite drastically. At least half of the S6 shots we discuss will be penetrating it as well. Besides which, Jetbikes can get an increased save with IC's tanking on a 2++ rerollable if we really want it, so we can improve our save.

Now you're just talking nonsense. You can't improve your save on those jetbikes using what they have at those points. If you want to talk about adding in hundreds of points in special characters and powers, then fine, I can make the ravager invisible too. Let's stick to reality here.

A ravager can EASILY improve it's save risk-free with no points expendature simply by deploying in cover. A jetbike can get a cover save, but it's worse than it's armour save so it doesn't increase it's surviveability in relation to a ravager.

As for penetration rolls, yes, those can happen, just like people can shoot at your bikes with AP2/AP3 weapons that ignore your save, throwing you right back under the bus as far as surviveability vs. the ravager goes. But before S6, penetrations can't happen at all, whereas all those S3-S5 weapons will still kill your bikes.

@CanadianMecha I just checked the book again, because the BS 5 of the felarch's might have changed my mind and made it worth it, but hydranixx is right. They get WS5, not BS5. So they'll still be hitting on the same numbers as a ravager.

_________________
Back to top Go down
hydranixx
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 466
Join date : 2013-11-26

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 04:03

For argument's sake, I'm going to assume that the Ravager is generally tougher to kill, it's more likely to stick around, assume I can find cover for it, and assume all hits against it are glancing hits...

At which point, I'm probably still picking these Dark Lance Cloud Dancers, as they're getting me either a free VP if I kill something (Hate Bringers) or they're just better at their job with Preferred Enemy (Titan Breakers), variable lance numbers, far more mobility, which by the way happens to be mobility that cannot be so easily dismissed as they are also Objec Secured.

I get where you're coming from... But If I'm playing both Dark Eldar & Corsairs, and in this case CWE too, I'd not bother with Dark Lance Ravagers at all. I think the Lance Dancers are better, but if I'm wrong (and hey I might be), and if you really wanted the extra durability that the Ravager supposedly offers, I think a Falcon is inherently better anyway.

With only 2 weapons as opposed to the Ravager's 3, this alone nets it another 6" movement if it wants to shoot, plus it has better armour, and isn't open topped. Of course, one could also just convert or proxy Venoms into Hornets too.

I know you'll disagree with me, BtW, and I respect your reasoning and I respect you, but if we're playing Dark Eldar & Corsairs in the same list, then for me, the anti tank equation looks something like this:

Hornets > Haywire Scourges > Lance Dancers > Lance Falcon (Fusion Gun Reavers inside) > Lance Ravagers > Blasterborn.

_________________
"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
Back to top Go down
CanadianMecha
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2015-09-18

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 04:50

Thanks you all for your feedback and all Very Happy (what a shame no +1 B.S on the felarch Sad )
I think I will stick to the last list I have shown you. I just need to find a way to spend my 27 pts left Razz
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)   Fri Apr 22 2016, 05:40

@hydranixx wrote:

I know you'll disagree with me, BtW, and I respect your reasoning and I respect you, but if we're playing Dark Eldar & Corsairs in the same list, then for me, the anti tank equation looks something like this:

Hornets > Haywire Scourges > Lance Dancers > Lance Falcon (Fusion Gun Reavers inside) > Lance Ravagers > Blasterborn.

You're right, I disagree. The thing is, in a list-based comparison of merits, ravagers being immune to S4 or lower and only taking glances at S5 on 6's might only be 1 or 2 things on the list, but it's a pretty huge 2 things. I don't think you're truly taking the gravity of that into account.

In many lists, that will exclude 50-90% of the enemy's shots from hurting it to begin with, which simply isn't the case for the bikes.

As for your ranks, we pretty much agree across the board, with the exception of your bikes placement. You put them very high. I put them very low. At 40 points each, they're far too expensive to be that easy to lose. That's more expensive than a terminator, and almost as expensive as a centurion.

Mine would look something like this: Hornets > Haywire Scourges > Lance Falcon (Fusion Gun Reavers inside) > Lance Ravagers > Lanceborn inside a bastion > Lance Dancers > Blasterborn.

And for pure vehicle killyness, Eldar swooping hawks beat everything in that list hands down. 18" movement plus up to 12 inch charge with fleet gives them an average threat range of 26" vs vehicles. Within that range, pretty much all vehicles die. 1 BS5 haywire grenade thrown followed by 6 in melee normally drops a 3 hullpoint vehicle with the quickness.

PS: I LOVE eldar jetbikes for obsec, but I don't think it's that big of an advantage on these guys because of their loadout. It makes them a huge target, which sort of neutralizes their obsec. Obsec bikes are generally best left cheap, or with scatter lasers. I personally prefer them cheap so that if someone shoots at them, ALL they are doing is killing an obsec dude. No teeth. That makes the opponent have to decide between taking out your offensive firepower and stopping your points capturing ability.

_________________
Back to top Go down
 
DE/Corsair/CWE 1850 pts (any advice?!)
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Army Lists
-
Jump to: