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Gonegagga
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PostSubject: Bloodbrides   Mon Apr 11 2016, 02:00

Hey everyone, i've kinda just recently found this forum, as well as started collecting 40k but i had a question about bloodbrides.

Now i understand the cons to them, especially over taking other elite choices in bigger games, but i currently only have around 1000 pts and am considering trying them out a little. I figured that for the upgrade to bloodbride for 5 wyches is only 15 points, doing this will give me 1 extra attack per model making 4 each on the charge, or 5 with the right combat drug roll for the same cost as 3 incubi.

Now i know that, at least from what i can gather, actually getting them to their intended target is one of the biggest problems. I have only had around 2-3 proper games however and was just curious that in say 750-1000 point games if it's any easier, what with there being less enemy units on average to instagib their transport?
I'll have a play around with them myself probably using 5 in a raider with a succubus maybe using haywire on the succy and the syren for that extra versitility but i'd just like any feedback from people who've tried fielding them.

Cheers!

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Mon Apr 11 2016, 15:00

What is your intended target with the unit?

The main drawback is that they really cant kill anything. They are OK at sitting in CC and frustrating opponents with their 4++, but in terms of damage output its almost nonexistant.

Increasing their 0 damage output by 30% still leaves you with 0 damage output. Maybe you have a specific enemy unit in mind that would fear the S3 attacks?

And as for transports getting shot down, this will be an issue in any game. If you have something scary in an AV10 transport, it will get killed ASAP. The strategy is to have most of your army be "semi-scary" so they dont know what to shoot first.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Mon Apr 11 2016, 16:02

And blobs are a problem due to overwatch. It can be great but two or three lucky 6 and you're toast.

But don't let that bother you! The models are amazing and with a little bit converting you can turn them into Lheamean.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Mon Apr 11 2016, 16:19

well like i said i've only played 3 proper games, these were against orks, Eldar and finally Tau. I won against the Orks but i lost vs tau and Eldar. I see what you're saying however, most of what i saw online was people not liking the change that wyches went through in the new codex but perhaps it's more the fact i'm not familiar with other armies enough to know that they can't kill anything that can be thrown at them...

I guess i'll keep them as wyches then and use them to keep something busy for a while, i really like the models too so i'll certainly be fielding them somehow Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Tue Apr 12 2016, 12:37

As Cptmetal said, you can proxy them as Lahmeans (from the Archon's Court).

They get 3A on a charge with 2+ poison weapons. At 10 pts a pop (and unit size ranging from 1-10), they are actually decent. They only have a 5+ save, but if you want an army that lives through a game, you've come to the wrong place Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Tue Apr 12 2016, 20:25

WELL,

Technically, we live, we just end up in Haemy pain pods and regrow.

Honestly, I think they like the excitement of dying...they just need more ways to make others die.

But yeah, we die to a stiff breeze.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 01:17

@fisheyes wrote:
As Cptmetal said, you can proxy them as Lahmeans (from the Archon's Court).

They get 3A on a charge with 2+ poison weapons. At 10 pts a pop (and unit size ranging from 1-10), they are actually decent. They only have a 5+ save, but if you want an army that lives through a game, you've come to the wrong place Wink


Yeah I've long advocated Lhameans simply replacing Wyches/Bloodbrides in lists. The only things they fall short on is lack of invulnerable saves in close combat, and drugs (which are pretty terrible anyway).

Some additional bonuses they have over the Wyches (that you haven't mentioned) are the extra points in leadership, fulfilling the compulsory HQ slot, and the ability to kill Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures.

Their weapons mean that 6's to wound also cause d3 wounds due to instant death, and also negate its FnP save. So they can feasibly finish off a wounded GMC in cc in a single turn of combat, provided you can catch it. If you're really lucky, 2 lucky 6's could straight up kill a full health Wraithknight too.

@Gonegagga if you're playing a small game, as your post implies, then a bunch of Lhameans help with some close combat punch more than Bloodbrides or Wyches ever will, and also complete your HQ requirements so you free up points for your other slots.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 02:44

Thanks for the feedback all, I'd not even considered the Court to be honest, partly due to initially not liking the concept of paying blister prices for their statline and secondly i just didn't really like any of their models too much so i tended to skip by them a little when reading. Schoolboy error!

Using them as Lhamean then, i'll start looking at revising my list and see what i can come up with! Tis' a Shame though, wych cults are the whole thing that attracted me to DE in the first place. I'll probably still make a cult army even if it isn't that great and hope that maybe they'll get improved in the future Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 03:02

You can quite easily convert Wyches into Lhameans if the price turns you off. I really don't like the Lhamean's model or price tag either, that's why I went the converting route. I just sliced all the hair off and sculpted hoods for them instead. Looks energetic and dynamic, as Wyches tend to, but also adds some extra mystique to them.

And actually lets me use Wych models without auto losing.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 06:32

You got any pictures of those for us?

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 07:57

Well as your know my camera is trash, so here's hoping.

They're a WIP, to be sure. I'm happy with a few of the 8 I've done. The rest need some more attention...







They're entirely Wyches, with green stuff hats. Still getting used to making such tiny pieces of cloth...

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 12:54

For mine I just used a regular warrior body, and put on the wych CCW and a pistol. Looks fine (and can easily be used as an Archon if I feel like it). We get plenty of extra bits in all our kits, especially the transports Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Wed Apr 13 2016, 13:20

I'm actually thinking about the dark elves Close combat witch equivalent unit.

https://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Schl%C3%A4chterschwestern-der-Dunkelelfen

But I'd try a longer coat for the witches first.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sat Apr 16 2016, 19:38

@Korazell wrote:
WELL,

Technically, we live, we just end up in Haemy pain pods and regrow.

Honestly, I think they like the excitement of dying...they just need more ways to make others die.

But yeah, we die to a stiff breeze.

The thing with Wyches is that approximately 99.9999% of them are nothing but cannon fodder for their Succubi, and the remaining 0.0001% are potential competitors.
When a common Wych dies, nobody else cares. Few manage to survive long enough to become recognized by the crowd and master weapons that are more flashy than just a knife. Those may advance further to become Hakatrizes (who use other Wyches as meat shields) and even be picked by a Succubus to join her Bloodbrides (which she uses as meat shields). Only those who are considered useful enough by the Succubus, or happen to have a Haemonculus amongst their not too illoyal fans, may be revived. After all, being wasteful, especially with things of greater value, is a status symbol in and of itself in Commorragh.

If a Wych lives or dies depends on her skills. If a Wych gets to live again depends on her connections - and her higher-ups' whims.


So much for the fluff. Though it does translate into the crunch, to a point:
A Wych isn't expected to kill many things, just to die instead of a character with a better weapon. And Bloodbrides, although they are technically more valuable, are used the exact same way.
The idea that a Succubus surrounds herself with only the best fighters of her Cult, but throws their lives away like used tissues anyway, simply because she can, may be fluffy, but nowhere near practical.

So if Wyches are tissues, Bloodbrides are silken handkerchiefs, and the only real difference to an Archon or Succubus is that using the former would normally be beneath them.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sun Jun 12 2016, 02:06

@Gonegagga wrote:
Hey everyone, i've kinda just recently found this forum, as well as started collecting 40k but i had a question about bloodbrides.

Now i understand the cons to them, especially over taking other elite choices in bigger games, but i currently only have around 1000 pts and am considering trying them out a little. I figured that for the upgrade to bloodbride for 5 wyches is only 15 points, doing this will give me 1 extra attack per model making 4 each on the charge, or 5 with the right combat drug roll for the same cost as 3 incubi.

Cheers!


First. Compare a squad of close combat units with a squad of warriors armed with a cannon or a lance. These things deal damage from distance while on the move. Your wyches must move in, disembark, wait a turn and then assault. They do have the ability to assault a unit in over 10" range in that following turn. Also, they have a 4+ invul in close combat, plus FnP from turn three.

Now, I'm probably not the most sane person to give you ideas but anyway. Where I can seen use of them is for pressure and suicide missions. When a lot of targets are in the air, having to deal with a raider with frenzied warriors coming at you can be intimidating!

Alternatively as a low-priority target that is lurking around, striking weak points.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sun Jun 12 2016, 09:30

You're not waiting a turn because open topped transports are Assault vehicles and you can charge right away if you haven't moved more than 6 inch. So:
6 inch movement Venom
6 inch disembark
2D6 Assault (don't forget Fleet!)

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sun Jun 12 2016, 12:41

Bloodbrides only redeeming point in non-competiteve games are Syren with Power Sword or Agoniser.
You pretty much take entire squad just for this model. Even then they are sorta combat support, not outright combat unit themselfs.

Rest of the brides have slightly more S3 atacks then regular Wych, but as it isnt mean anything - treat them as 4++ wounds (more expensive then regular Wych).

5 models tops, which probably means venom is preferable platform. They also need some proper combat unit to support, Reavers come to mind at once.

Here is comparison of Wyches vs Bloodbriders at roughly 100pts units on the charge.

Bloodbrides
100 pts  
         5   Atacks with Agoniser
         16 Atacks with Normal CCW
         5   Wounds

Wyches
105 pts

         4   Atacks with Agoniser
         18 Atacks with normal CCW
         7   wounds

So they are  more damaging and also slightly more squishy, one more agoniser atack is clearly better then 2 normal ccw atack. If i considered which whych squad to take in venom - i'd take brides.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sun Jun 12 2016, 16:59

@Rokuro wrote:

The thing with Wyches is that approximately 99.9999% of them are nothing but cannon fodder for their Succubi, and the remaining 0.0001% are potential competitors.

99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Your comments aren't supported by the fluff. You're making up what wyches are based upon the rules. That's not the way it's supposed to work. The rules are supposed to be based on the fluff.

Per the fluff, every wych is a trained killer without peer, able to kill creatures many times their size with the simplest of instruments. Wyches aren't the ONLY ones who fight in the arenas. The word "wych" isn't equivalent to the word "gladiator". There are other DE and non-DE that might end up fighting in the arena. THEY are gladiators, but a wych is something more, something different. They're already further trained than simply a "gladiator". They're chosen from amongst the gladiators. By the time they become a wych, they've likely already been forged in battle, blessed by victory after victory.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Sun Jun 12 2016, 18:46

@ Betray

"Ahhh, you think the Arena is your ally. You merely adopted the arena. I was born in it. Molded by it. I didn't see the light of Commoragh until I was a Bloodbride, by then it was nothing to me but blinding."

But, yes, wyches per the fluff are peerless. They are the ones who are paid to go on raids, to entertain and slaughter, all at once. They wage a war against their own pride and whoever dares stand before them. They live their lives knowing that they need to be perfect, peerless, and there are dozens of others that work with them, compete with them, against them, and perform.

Using each other isn't a wych thing, it's a standard way of DE life.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Mon Jun 13 2016, 10:15

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:

The thing with Wyches is that approximately 99.9999% of them are nothing but cannon fodder for their Succubi, and the remaining 0.0001% are potential competitors.

99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Your comments aren't supported by the fluff. You're making up what wyches are based upon the rules. That's not the way it's supposed to work. The rules are supposed to be based on the fluff.

I don't claim to know the exact numbers, but I know the fluff well beyond unit descriptions.
I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here again: Every unit that isn't meant to be "comically" miserable is described as if they were the best of the best of the best, with honors, Sir. Yet somehow, of each of them exists an even better version.
Wyches may be described as "peerless", but compared to who? Kabalites, humans maybe, or whatever else ends up in the arenae? Certainly not amongst themselves though. Once you viewed the whole picture of their faction, you see that the only one truely peerless is Lelith.

Perhaps even more so than the rest of the 40k universe, Commoragh is a place where losers are many and winners are very few. It's all about who has something and who has not. And more likely than not, there's someone else trying to capitalize on one's success, if not outright trying to steal it.
Wyches have something Kabalites don't: Superior fighting skills. But on the same page, the higher-ranking Cult members have superior skills to those of lower ranks. With superiority inevitably comes disdain for all those inferior. And superior Dark Eldar will always try to take all the gain, especially at expense of inferior ones. Reaching greater heigths of success is even more enjoyable to them when they can cause others to fall. For some, it's the entire point of competition amongst their own kind.

Bloodbrides being hand-picked bodyguards to the Succubi is explicitely described in the lore section of the codex. As is the fact that Succubi don't care about inferior fighters in the slightest.
Any reason why the same wouldn't apply to the lower-ranking Cult members?

I'm not making any of this up, I'm applying canon Dark Eldar psychology and social customs to the little gaps left in the fluff.


Also, Commorragh is larger and more crowded than multiple Imperial hive worlds together, so I might actually underestimate the numbers.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides   Mon Jun 13 2016, 16:39

@Rokuro wrote:

I'm not making any of this up, I'm applying canon Dark Eldar psychology and social customs to the little gaps left in the fluff.

No, you're ignoring the fluff and making up whatever you want based on the rules of the models.

I could post more fluff from other books, and excerpts from novels, but its clear that you're just going to ignore all that in favor of selectively choosing what sentences to believe and what to completely ignore, so there is no point.

We can just agree to disagree.

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