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 2000p giving DL one more chance

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 02:00

@hydranixx wrote:
Guardsmen blobs and Conscripts frequently have priests in them, so they're fearless without losing more men to Commissars, and can give all the guardsmen in their unit rerolls to wound, or rerolls on their saves. They might also have a flamer or 5. This might skew the results of your mathhammer a little.

It actually doesn't, really, since my math hammer was based on equal points worth of units. If you add all those upgrades and such, you have to add additional grots to compensate for the difference in points. And because grots are so cost efficient, it's difficult to give them any sort of force multiplier that doesn't result in the same end result. You just have to understand that each grot is basically the equivalent of an 11 point S5/T5 infantry unit with 3 attacks on the charge. It's pretty difficult to beat that price, even when using a force multiplier on a blob. You'd have to REALLY buff that blob, like rerolls to hit, hammerhand, feel no pain level buffs...and then you have to consider how much the characters cost that gave you all that. Did it pay for more grots than you neutralized with it? I would guess probably not.

If you add a 70 point model that gives them hammerhand, that's 2 more grots that you can afford to throw at that unit. You add a 105 point character that buffs the unit? That's 3. The point is, grots are hyper-efficient at killing anything GEQ-related. No matter how many buffs you put on that unit, it's still a guardsman. And if someone truly spent enough on a guard blob to make them scary with buffs, grots would STILL make great tarpits, considering how much it'd have cost them.


@hydranixx wrote:

His 200 lasgun shots can't hurt either of them anyway, but his Leman Russ with 29 St5 shots per turn, or his Vendetta with triple twin-linked Lascannons, or his Meltagun Veterans with Meltabombs and ignores cover order, will kill either of them without much trouble.

So I'd choose 4 Raiders over 2 Ravagers every single time.

You're talking about the ravagers now...ok. S5 shots from the leman russ can't hurt their AV11 front armour except glances on 6's, and if you're saying it's getting to their side or back armour somehow, then they've presumably already done their damage, or someone incompetent is playing them. Either way, I'm assuming you're talking about having pask driving that thing, so that's 250 points invested in a vehicle to kill a 125 point ravager that has just as much a chance of killing IT instead. And you have 2. I'd keep the ravagers in most cases because you're giving up not only offensive punch, but also the AV11 that makes them bolter-proof. They don't need to make it to end game. They just need to help you crack the tough nuts - AV12+. You have other tools that can take out AV10-11.

Everything in that list except the lascannons and maybe allied deep striking melta guns will take multiple turns before they can get in range, and the deep striking turn 1 meltaguns are easy to counter with deployment. DE have plenty of vehicles to bubble wrap their important vehicles from being within melta range when a squad deploys by drop pod. You just space your stuff to not leave room for a drop pod close to your important vehicles.

Of course, you weigh this against how many blast templates and barrage weapons he has, and make decisions accordingly, but we don't have the space here to create tactical geniuses and cover every possible contingency, only to give sound tactical advice in a general sense. It's always going to be up to the player to properly extrapolate upon that advice, and apply it to their own meta.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 05:17

Yeah, fair enough; your points about Grots vs Guard are all very true. It's not realistic for Guardsmen to ever stand up to Grotesques, even if they are buffed defensively. The amount of points needed to even give the Guard a chance is not remotely feasible.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
You're talking about the ravagers now...ok.

Yeah, I only brought them up because you said "Ravagers are bolter proof", which doesn't matter against Guard, which is the match up we're discussing, which is the only match up the OP has difficulty with...

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
S5 shots from the leman russ can't hurt their AV11 front armour except glances on 6's, and if you're saying it's getting to their side or back armour somehow, then they've presumably already done their damage, or someone incompetent is playing them. Either way, I'm assuming you're talking about having pask driving that thing, so that's 250 points invested in a vehicle to kill a 125 point ravager that has just as much a chance of killing IT instead. And you have 2.

Pask is very common in Guard lists, and he gives automatic Preferred Enemy to all tanks in his unit. He can also order split fire, so theoretically, with just a single buddy tank in the unit, it can suppress or kill 2 separate Ravagers quite easily:

If it's the Punisher variant for Pask himself, we're looking at 29 shots at BS4, with rerolls of all 1's. A heck of a lot of his 29 shots ARE hitting, and a decent amount of those ARE glancing.

Ergo I'd rather sacrifice the single 60 point Raider than the single 125 Ravager.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I'd keep the ravagers in most cases because you're giving up not only offensive punch, but also the AV11 that makes them bolter-proof.

Yes, absolutely, in most cases Ravagers are good, and better options than Raiders.

But equally absolutely, the bolter-proof-ness means nothing in this match up. We're against either massed S3 firepower, or specialised anti tank units, both of which are equally going to either ignore Raiders and Ravagers or completely kill either of them.

That's why I consider Ravagers an awkward choice against Guard.

And that's why a decent alternative (against Guard) to X Dark Lance Ravagers would be to take 2X Dark Lance Raiders (and save 5pts for your effort).

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 05:44

@hydranixx wrote:

If it's the Punisher variant for Pask himself, we're looking at 29 shots at BS4, with rerolls of all 1's. A heck of a lot of his 29 shots ARE hitting, and a decent amount of those ARE glancing.

I think you're underestimating the defensive ability of a ravager. I normally deploy mine on the top level of a ruin, at an angle denying side armour shots from as much of the table as possible. I never plan to move them unless absolutely necessary. 36" range is usually enough to be ok with that.

That said, let's do the math hammer on 29 shots at a ravager front armour with a 4+ cover save(which you COULD get from jink too, but I recommend ruins instead - I like shooting).

Averages: 29 shots at BS4 is 19.14 hits and 4.93 rerolls resulting in 3.25 more hits for a total of 22.39 hits.
22.39 hits that are glancing on 6's results in 3.71 glancing hits, reduced to 1.85 unsaved glancing hits with a cover save. Not enough to wreck a ravager in cover.

Sure, his 250 point tank could get lucky and do way better than average, but so could your ravager. Can't account for lot's of crazy dice rolls. If things go close to averages, he doesn't even kill the ravager with the punisher and pask.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 05:55

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I think you're underestimating the defensive ability of a ravager. I normally deploy mine on the top level of a ruin, at an angle denying side armour shots from as much of the table as possible.

That's true I suppose - Cover saves do help it out a lot in that example against Pask. Ravagers are 11/11/10, so I'm usually not fussed if someone's peeking at my side armour though; not really too sure why that's a point you're too concerned with.

It is note worthy that Guard also get access to ignore cover orders on all their infantry, and some formations allow them to give ignores cover to things like Manticores and Basilisks... So sadly we can't always rely on Cover saves. Heck, one class of Leman Russ literally ignores cover with it's main weapon, which happens to be St6, 36", Large Blast... And is cheaper than a Ravager to boot.

Yeah it's definitely a tough army to play against for Dark Eldar. All I recommend is to hope there's no Deathstrikes or Demolishes, and rock up with multiple Grotesqueries Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 06:43

@hydranixx wrote:

That's true I suppose - Cover saves do help it out a lot in that example against Pask. Ravagers are 11/11/10, so I'm usually not fussed if someone's peeking at my side armour though; not really too sure why that's a point you're too concerned with.

Honestly? Because I forgot. lol

It's been over a year since I've fielded a ravager. When you're taking allies and you have access to swooping hawks, S9 singing spears, and 80 point hornets, it's difficult to justify taking a ravager.

And I've been taking allies ever since our new codex came out. My last pure DE list that I actually ran a game with was with our last codex. This was the list:

Hmm...was just going to link to it, as it was a list I posted on this site, but it looks like a lot of my old lists have been phased out of the army lists section. I wonder if threads get deleted automatically after a certain time period...?

Oh well, it was pretty easy to remember, was something like this:

2 CADs
2 Haemonculus
12 units of 5 Wyches w/haywire grenades in 12 venoms with dual splinter cannons
1 Dissie Ravager


I don't recall the other units exactly, but the 12 units of haywyches in 12 venoms was the core of the list. It worked incredibly well in the meta at the time, before the wraithknight became a gargantuan creature.

24 obsec units, 60 models with haywire grenades, 144 splinter cannon shots, 60 splinter shots, and wyches assaults.

I used to push all 12 venoms 30 inches across the table turn 1 and just jink when the enemy shot at me in their turn. Inevitably, I'd lose some. Maybe even a lot, but I had 12. Even if they killed 6, the next turn my wyches that survived the wrecks plus the ones embarked killed all their vehicles and tied their infantry up in CC while the venoms backed off to shoot and claim objectives.

At the time, wyches were good at killing vehicles and GEQ, and good at tarpitting everything else. Now I have 60 wyches sitting on a shelf. lol

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 09:14

Well my opponent have both deathstrike and a demolisher. Banenlade gona be a bitch.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 15:58

DL are not good at AT tbh, they are good at getting a few HP's here and there.

You need HWB or Melta to have good AT.

Either add HWB to your army or Ally in Fire Dragons with a WWP from a Archon.

A person taking a Baneblade against DE is just an fine gentleman if they dont let you prepare for it.

(So not to run off topic making this fast)
@BetrayTheWorld: Thats why I dont play DE anymore... Its my favorite army and why I still talk to others about it, but I just cant play it anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 16:53

Well he did pop out one baneblade and one Imperial knight in one of our matches, i was not prepared for it but managed to kill both, the problem was vets with camocloaks in ruins 2+ coversave is a tough cookie.
Actually that match is one of my favorites, he was so sure everything was going he´s way, almost all of my transports were down, over half my list gone and so far minimum damage to he´s guards. Than one turn, 3 Truborns with blaster whos venom had been shoot to crap, just moved up in the baneblade flank and blew that thing to kingdome come. Following that one Warrior squad who was pinned had two choises, snapshoot with 4 rapid ranged splinter rifles or snapshoot a blaster at its max range into the knight... The knight took 3hp from that snapshoot and exploded! Pask in he´s punisher was also in for a supprise, one bike with a blaster had survived, he moved within ranged hitt the front armour and pask was no more! My following round that bike killed 3 Armourd sentinels! However the battle was lost... Sadly he had gotten so many points from killing all that i had and i could just not catch up.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 17:42

@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats why I dont play DE anymore... Its my favorite army and why I still talk to others about it, but I just cant play it anymore.

Same here. DE have my favorite flufff. The story of vect is awesome, and wyches fluff rocks. It's unfortunate that the new codex took away my ability to play either of them effectively. I'm still hanging on to hope that they'll release a wych cult supplement.

When DE was first being released, the rumours all pointed to a codex, a covens supplement, and a wych cult supplement. Almost all the rumours were true, except instead of a wych cult supplement, we got a wych shart storm boxed set.

I'm hanging on to hope that they DID make a wych cult supplement as well, and they've just held back the release to make some edits or for strategic business purposes or something. Even though I haven't really played pure DE in over a year, if they released both a Kabals and Cults supplement tomorrow, I'd be 120 dollars poorer.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 18:30

@zergavas wrote:
Well he did pop out one baneblade and one Imperial knight in one of our matches, i was not prepared for it but managed to kill both, the problem was vets with camocloaks in ruins 2+ coversave is a tough cookie.
Actually that match is one of my favorites, he was so sure everything was going he´s way, almost all of my transports were down, over half my list gone and so far minimum damage to he´s guards. Than one turn, 3 Truborns with blaster whos venom had been shoot to crap, just moved up in the baneblade flank and blew that thing to kingdome come. Following that one Warrior squad who was pinned had two choises, snapshoot with 4 rapid ranged splinter rifles or snapshoot a blaster at its max range into the knight... The knight took 3hp from that snapshoot and exploded! Pask in he´s punisher was also in for a supprise, one bike with a blaster had survived, he moved within ranged hitt the front armour and pask was no more! My following round that bike killed 3 Armourd sentinels! However the battle was lost... Sadly he had gotten so many points from killing all that i had and i could just not catch up.

For friendly games tho thats kinda rude..... Taking 2 super heavies is hard on most opponents let alone DE.

In a Tourny or League all is fair in love and war, but PUG (pick up games) you should talk to each other about points/LoW/Superheavies/Game types etc..

But Im glad you did really well!

@BetrayTheWorld
Yeah No Vect and wyches being bad is terrible, Vect is a large part of DE and they just took him away.. Some friends let me play with the Old Dex sometimes and I have so much more fun Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 19:13

Yea, the guard player is realy the only one in our group who can do good lists and he often plays a bit more competitive stuff. Tried to go toe to toe with him but we usualy randomise our opponent so its ended up with me playing evil lists against the others instead. Not to fun against nids, he did not have much to bring against my venomspam list (all he did was get a immobilized on one venom).

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 20:25

Yeah I have something like 18 Vehicles all b.c 5th ed and the hopes of new DE book.

Its really fun to play a 15 Vehicles list and see people faces Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 21:42

I have 10 raiders, 10 venoms, 6 ravegers, 3 jetfighters and a bomber. It would be so sweet to get that in one list xD

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 22:15

1750: 2 CADS (You can do it in Realspace and take 1-2 Less Ravagers, 1-2 Less Lhameans and be able to take 2-3 More Venoms or Raiders, but you lose ObjSec) You can also take out a Ravager or 2 and put in some Dark Lances.

How effective this is? Well Maelstrom it could actually be good, and it could be terrible HAHA

HQ
Lhamean: Venom: Splinter Cannon
Lhamean: Venom: Splinter Cannon
Lhamean: Venom: Splinter Cannon
Lhamean: Venom: Splinter Cannon

Troop
Warrior x5: Blaster: Raider: Dis Cannon
Warrior x5: Blaster: Raider: Dis Cannon
Warrior x5: Blaster: Raider: Dis Cannon
Warrior x5: Blaster: Raider: Dis Cannon

Fast
Raider: Dis Cannon
Raider: Dis Cannon
Raider: Dis Cannon
Raider: Dis Cannon
Venom: Splinter Cannon
Venom: Splinter Cannon

Heavy
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon
Ravager: x3 Dis Cannon



My Pure DE list is normally (1850pts) I run Dbl Cad fyi

2x Lhamean: Venom: Splinter Cannon
4x Warrior x5: Blaster: Venom: Splinter Cannon
1x Sybarite (for Warlord)
4x Trueborn: x3 Blasters: Raider: Dark Lance
3x Reavers x3, X4 Caltrops
2x Scourges x4 HWB
1x Ravager x3 Dis Cannon

Over 1850 (2k) I just add another Ravager (dis cannons) and 1 more unit of Reavers, this comes to 1997pts.

I use Ravagers more as a scare tactic, I always aim for very important Items and scare players into shooting them, so far worked every time haha.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000p giving DL one more chance   Thu Apr 14 2016, 23:45

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

That's true I suppose - Cover saves do help it out a lot in that example against Pask. Ravagers are 11/11/10, so I'm usually not fussed if someone's peeking at my side armour though; not really too sure why that's a point you're too concerned with.

Honestly? Because I forgot. lol

In your defense, they are usually very forgettable on the tabletop  Razz

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It's been over a year since I've fielded a ravager. When you're taking allies and you have access to swooping hawks, S9 singing spears, and 80 point hornets, it's difficult to justify taking a ravager.

Yeah, I feel ya. I'm in the process of conforming to the logic that as pretty as Ravagers look, they're trash for anti tank. At their very best, they're mediocre compared to the vastly better options that both CWE and Corsairs have. Hornets are probably the best comparison for the role the DL Ravager is desperately trying to perform.

Except that Hornets with Pulse Lasers curb stomp them in every way except hull point count; more S8 Ap2 shots (and firing 4 such shots at full BS after 12" move, or firing snapshots after flat outing), Scout, not being open topped, and on top of this being FORTY FIVE POINTS cheaper.

Ironically, the only time in which a Ravager is better, is against massed St5 where the extra hull point means a lot. So yeah, Pask... hahaha. That example aside, take Hornets every time.

I think when I play Ravagers next I might just use dissies, and see if those are equally forgettable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I recall correctly, Dark Eldar vs Guard is scariest when they can match our speed as well as ignore our cover. So if you ever see a Guard player setting up 3 Hellhounds... yeah, it's time to run screaming.

One issue with amishprn86's 1750 list against Guard (though I can't tell if it's a serious list anyway) is that it can't even touch the AV 12 wall of Chimeras or Wyverns, let alone any Leman Russes hanging about.. Of course, with so many skimmers you can take objectives easily, but staying on them will be a trick with Baneblades and the like staring you down... Laughing

The other list with the Trueborn will have more success puncturing the tanks, if they can get close enough. Trueborn are always a risky unit to play with considering the changes to template weapons against open topped vehicles. Guard can pack a stupidly high amount of flamer type weapons if they want to, and ALL of them will kill 5 Trueborn. Even so, 16 Blasters between the Warriors and Trueborn is nothing to snuff at, and I think this list is better for general play and against Guard as well.

There's not a lot to do if your Guard opponent does frequently show up with Demolishers, Baneblades and Imperial Knights. I don't think there's a 'push to win' option against them. Maybe disposable Reavers to clog up firing lanes and make him make decisions? I'm really not sure how best to approach such a list without including allies Crying or Very sad

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