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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Need some advice   Fri Apr 08 2016, 18:59

This is more so for advice on how I should finish out the current league I am in.  I have been having a lot of fun with where my list is going but I have grown weary of its competitive edge in our final round of 1500 points


So I am a part of an escalation league.  Next month we have our 1500 point tournament and final month (there is a prize pool).

Going into this month I was tied for 11th (out of 30-40 people).  I scored 14 to 3 winning my last match (750 points).  This month we have 1,000 points and a tournament (my list already submitted).

Basically I am doing pretty well and I think I might have a shot at placing for the whole league.

Lately I have really liked the leadership tactics (freakshow)  and have been working on 1,500 point lists(Grotesquerie, DE CAD, CWE Allies, Cast of Players).  Long story short I have been having a lot of trouble with AT/AA in my testing.  Not always game breaking but to the point that if I lose my ravager I have to just ignore it and focus on objectives using assault as cover.

Normally I would just add more AT/AA but the trouble is that the list is so tight it would sacrifice a main tool.  

What I am getting at is:

Is Freakshow worth doing at 1500?

It feels like I am forcing it.

Or have I just been staring at the list for too long? lol!

It is still a lot of fun to play, I am just dreading facing some of the more powerful lists I have seen at the club.  

What do you guys think?  How serious do you guys take league play?  Sacrifice fun to combat the meta or focus on doing what I do best and hope for the best?

I have thought about dropping the cast, wwp, archangels, and the hemlock and focus on some competetive CWE choices to add to my allied formation and beefing up my cad with some reavers.  I feel this would be more competetive and I can always play the freakshow list in more casual games.  Good to have variety.

What would you do?


The list:

++ Dark Eldar: Supplement - Haemonculus Covens (Formation Detachment) (400pts) ++

+ Formation (400pts) +

Formation: Grotesquerie (400pts)
Grotesques (160pts)
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Raider (55pts) [Disintegrator]
Grotesques (160pts)
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Grotesque (35pts) [Close combat weapon]
Raider (55pts) [Disintegrator]
Haemonculus (80pts) [Close combat weapon, Scissorhand (10pts), Splinter Pistol]

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) (495pts) ++

+ HQ (160pts) +

Succubus (160pts) [Archite glaive (20pts), Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades (5pts), The Archangel of Pain (25pts), Webway portal (35pts)]

+ Troops (210pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

+ Heavy Support (125pts) +

Ravager (125pts) [Dark Lance (5pts), Dark Lance (5pts), Dark Lance (5pts)]

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Allied Detachment) (341pts) ++

+ HQ (105pts) +

Farseer (105pts) [Singing Spear (5pts)]

+ Troops (51pts) +

Windriders (51pts) [3x Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult (51pts)]

+ Fast Attack (185pts) +

Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)

++ Harlequins - Codex (Formation Detachment) (260pts) ++

+ Formation (260pts) +

Cast of Players (260pts)
Death Jester (65pts) [Haywire grenades (5pts)]
Shadowseer (100pts) [Mastery Level 2 (25pts), Shuriken Pistol, The Mask of Secrets (15pts)]
Troupe (95pts)
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Troupe Master (35pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]



I would love to have some more beefyness with a 1850 or 2000 list to really do this right.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Sun Apr 10 2016, 04:20

I assume your succubus, haemonculus, and your farseer go into your cast of players to form a sort of anti-leadership deathstar?

If so:

Basically, I have 2 thoughts here. First, at 1500 points, if you scrounged up a few points to put 1 or 2 fusion guns on your cast, you'll probably be OK on AT.

On second thought, however, the space marine free metal box detachment is sort of popular in the meta right now for all the obsec everywhere, and the generally resilient nature of the list. So with that in mind, I think taking an "Aspect Host" formation with 3 units of 6 swooping hawks(who have haywire grenades and move 18" in the movement phase), would solve all of your concerns about anti-vehicle. They're also incredibly fast and carry assault 3 lasblasters for hordes, which in the aspect host, are fired at BS5 if you want them to be(Hint: you do). They also have really cool grenade packs and the ability to jump off and onto the table at will.

I'd probably drop the grotesquerie detachment in favor of getting the aspect host. Since the host costs 318 points for the 18 hawks with exarchs, you'd have 82 points left to spend elsewhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd probably consider using the points for either a unit of wracks with acothyst and ossefactor, or a unit of vaul's wrath support batteries. Both are good objective campers, being very tough vs. shooting attacks. The tradeoff is that the wracks are better in melee if someone closes with them, and the batteries are better at shooting and taking shots as long as they aren't assaulted.

Comparison of toughness for objective camping:
Wracks gone to ground in ruins = T4 with 3+ cover save and FnP 5+.
Batteries in same ruins = T7 vs shooting with 3+ armour, 4+ cover.


P.S. Congrats on doing well so far, and good luck with whatever you decide! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Sun Apr 10 2016, 06:35

The succubus goes with the cast, the heamonculus and farseer ride with squads of grots. The wwp would bring the cast near the farseer and t2+ he would switch squads (grots become feerless).

Being able to buff the grots should they lose their transport is nice too, actually stand a chance out of cover.

The reason behind this is partially to lead the grots/be shielded by their t5 and wounds, but also because I want to make use of shreik and such without having to roll reserves on.

I found having that much in reserves is a bit much for 1500. That is the strategy I was looking to use in larger games though. 1750+ Use a CWE CAD and take an autarch and put him with the grots and a farseer with the cast, add crimson death and you dont have to worry about AT/AA. Thought about switch from a cast to a path but I cant justify not being able to bubblewrap the shadowseer.

Back to 1500 points:

Getting rid of the grots is interesting. It would significantly change the way I have been playing. I would lose the freakshow -1 leadership as well. They were the Spearhead. I dont see myself holding table control without something tough to throw through the middle, any suggestions?

Didnt think about the pistols on the cast though.

Part of me thinks its awesome to play this strategy and I have fun doing it, but the other part of me says if I can win, I should try to. Kind of wish I got crushed my first few games so I wouldnt care as much haha.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Sun Apr 10 2016, 13:46

Well that's the thing...the "freakshow" part of the freakshow is actually the weakest part of it. It's only a -1. Without the grots, everything else is still in place for the leadership shenanigans...you'd be able to drop an archangel bomb at -4 and psychic shrieks at -2. (Both of these at -5/-3 if you also get terrify).

As for replacing the spearhead, use the cast in T2. Just drop them right in the middle of the %#$t. If you take telepathy on your farseer, you likely have either shrouding or invisibility. Use it on that unit and make them hard to shift, then shriek and profit. Go to ground if you have to for the saves. They'll still be effective in CC, and have hit and run to exit, fire their stuff, and countercharge next turn.

In turn 1, surprise your opponent with the 18 inch movement of the swooping hawks(for some reason, even tournament players don't expect this 50% of the time). Then play some mind games with them if you need to. Threaten vehicles while trying to stay out of assault ranges, but if you get assaulted, it's no big deal. They aren't terrible in assault with a 4+ armour save. If something nasty shoots at them, go to ground for the extra saves, then skyleap off the board in your next movement phase so you don't have to spend a turn pinned/gone to ground. Then they automatically deep strike back in on the next turn without scattering. It's a smoke and mirrors unit with tons of options.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All you have to do is survive turn 1 and destroy some transports. The idea is to get as many enemy guys on foot as possible turn 1, so that turn 2 your cast brings the pain with the 18" AoE of the archangel, 2 shrieks from the farseer and wraithfighter, and a couple D-blasts for good measure.

You know, thinking about it, it might not be a bad idea to consider spending that 82 points on getting an autarch to ensure your reserves arrive on turn 2. A lot sort of hinges on that. You could drop on of the warriors venoms, making a warriors squad objective campers in your DZ to upgrade the allied detachment to a CAD with an autarch and another unit of jetbikes.

That would actually be exactly enough points to pay for an autarch and a unit of scatterbikes to put you right at the 1500 mark. The Autarch's ability works as long as he's alive even if he's in reserve, so I'd probably just pop him in the cast to ensure he doesn't bite it before they come in.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Sun Apr 10 2016, 19:02

thats the plan for 1850/2000

Unfortunatly I am stuck with DE as primary detatchment.

"Players are encouraged to tweak their army lists as the league progresses and are not bound to the initial list but MUST remain with the same faction for their primary detachment or formation through the league. "

Is a constraint for this, and I picked DE. I apologize for not including that in the original post.

Would love to work with you on my 1850 list though, I think youre on to something.  Autarch is the plan.

How about my 1500 being stuck with DE primary, any way around that? like taking a covens formation as primary and taking an Eldar CAD (not sure if you can take a cad without same race warlord) to give me a better chance in the 1500 tournament?  Or should I stick with something similar to the list I posted?

also, about the grots... they are pretty nasty in the formation. Especially if you roll something nice on their bonus (although yeah counting on a roll kind of suck but their power from pain is decent enough)
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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Sun Apr 10 2016, 21:43

I'm using a 1500pt with some freakshow elements and in the first couple of games it performed OK.

The list is:

Archon with Agonizer / Shadowfield / HWG / WWP / Archangel of pain
Succubus with Archite Glaive / HWG / Armour of Misery
4 x 5 kabalites with blaster in venom
Fast attack Raider with DC and nightshield

Cast of players
DJ with HWG
SS with Mask of Secrets and ML2
Troupe Master with caress / neuro disruptor
5 players with 4 caress

Autarch with Banshee Mask / Swooping Hawk Wings / Firesabre
5 Rangers
Crimson Hunter

------

Archon and Succubus join the Harlequins in the Raider

Autarch joins Rangers

Turn 2 Archon brings the Harlequins inon a 2+ and opens the Casket with enemy units in range testing at -6, Shadowseer casts psychic shriek at 3d6 with -4, DJ hopefully makes something else test at -6. Following turns they become a serious melee threat or split up to engage 3 different targets (Archon/Succubus/Harlequins)

Autarch is here to ensure the Archons unit comes in but can be a threat to anything getting close to the Rangers with an 18" move and then charge or just run around being a nuisance. Venoms do what they do and the crimson Hunter adds anti flyer or anti tank

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 00:26

@WhysoSully wrote:

Unfortunatly I am stuck with DE as primary detatchment.

How about my 1500 being stuck with DE primary, any way around that? like taking a covens formation as primary and taking an Eldar CAD (not sure if you can take a cad without same race warlord) to give me a better chance in the 1500 tournament?

You could do everything I suggested in your current list with the succubus as your warlord. A CAD doesn't require the warlord to be drawn from the same faction. You could take 3 CADs and a cast of players, and make your warlord the troupe leader from the cast formation. The only detachment I know of that limits this is the "allied detachment" from the main rulebook, which specifically says in that particular detachment, you may not choose for the warlord to be from it.

Some people have mistakenly taken that to mean that you can't take a warlord from any allied formation/detachment, but that's not the case. There aren't any rules limiting that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the grots being nasty on their own...I wholeheartedly agree. They're a pretty awesome force in melee. The best general CC unit in our codex, actually. And at 1850 points, I'd suggest you take both the grots AND the swooping hawks formations. Unfortunately, at this level of play, you have choices to make. The formation of hawks would eliminate any concern of not being able to take out mech. They could take out an Ork Big Stompa in 1 turn and have a unit left to do something else.

That said, the more middle of the road choice would be to mix N match. You don't necessarily HAVE to take swooping hawks in the formation, although the formation gives them +1BS and the ability to reroll failed pinning, morale, and regroup tests. You COULD take a unit of grots in a raider in the DE CAD, an autarch, a unit of 6 swooping hawks w/exarch(6 models total), and a haemonculus to go with the grots(since they won't get fearless T2 any more).

However, the middle of the road approach sacrifices both the bonuses from the hawks formation, PLUS the benefits from the grots formation. Personally, I'd just take the hawks this time around, and lament the absence of the grots.

If you DO take the hawks, play aggressive with them. Move out 18" and charge vehicles turn 1 with fleet. They're really good at taking them out. In the subsequent turn, when they're inevitably hugging the remains of a wreck, don't be afraid to go to ground if you have to for the extra cover save(which you can declare AFTER wound allocation, before saves are made). You want to avoid this if you can, obviously. But they also have a 4+ armour save, so there is a decent chance you won't have any use for going to ground, depending on what's being shot at them. And don't forget that the exarch has 2 wounds and WS5. They have, in the past, performed admirably for me in melee against both orks and space marines as long as they don't have power weapons. Basically, that 4+ instead of 5+ means they don't fold nearly as easily as eldar guardians or kabalite warriors in melee. It's not uncommon, if they survive the initial charge, for them to stay locked in combat for almost the rest of the game against a similar points value of tac marines or orks. Against the orks it's more difficult to survive the initial charge, but if they do, they will often beat orks in the subsequent combats due to orks poor saves.

Also, if you wanted to make them more versatile, for 10 points per unit, you COULD take a power weapon on the exarchs, like a power lance. This would give them a 30" assault threat range with fleet, WS5 on the exarch, and 3 attacks with a S4 AP3 weapon on the charge at initiative 6. This would presumably be at the cost of the 3 scatter lasers from the jetbikes I suggested taking. I normally wouldn't do this because scatter lasers are pretty solid in shooting, but there is some merit to making the hawks better in assault too. Actually, I only just remembered that they only pay 10 points per unit for the power weapon, and might start taking them myself too. Very Happy

Sorry for the book. I hope you like to read, haha.

P.S. Don't forget to throw a haywire grenade in the shooting phase before assaulting the vehicles in the assault phase. The BS6 of the exarch in the formation makes it VERY likely that you'll knock off a hullpoint before you ever charge. And another favorite maneuver of mine is to use their 18" movement to set up a "surrounded" situation with a transport when I charge, so that when I kill the vehicle, no one can disembark without coming within an inch of one of my models, which means they die and don't get to disembark. Models must FIRST be placed in base contact with the vehicle at the point where they're exiting, and THEN get to move. But they can't be placed in base contact with the vehicle within an inch of an enemy model. Dirty? Certainly. Effective? Completely.

This trick is fantastic when used against a "deathstar" type unit or unit with a warlord that someone dared to put in a transport. Haven't they heard the dangers of vehicular accidents? Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 09:41

Wow great info there, really appreciate. I am going to work on a list. I like the aspect host of swooping hawks. The hawks and spiders(no spiders in 1500 but in the future) were both units I wanted to work into a list eventually.

Def love the scat bikes but they are a bonus. You can still boost to objectives and still get to jink and have a better armor save.

I will work on a list and post it here tonight.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 11:02

Sounds good man. Yeah, I'm considering adding some spiders later myself, but I already run an expensive deathstar list, so points are tight. I'd probably have to move away from the psychic shenanigans I currently play. I typically have around 20 warp charge in my army list.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 11:24

So this is what ive calculated so far:


+++ Super Cousins (1367pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) (370pts) ++

+ HQ (160pts) +

Succubus (160pts) [Archite glaive (20pts), Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades (5pts), The Archangel of Pain (25pts), Webway portal (35pts)]

+ Troops (210pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (467pts) ++

+ HQ (180pts) +

Autarch (75pts) [Banshee Mask (5pts), Shuriken Pistol]

Farseer (105pts) [Singing Spear (5pts)]

+ Troops (102pts) +

Windriders (51pts) [3x Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult (51pts)]

Windriders (51pts) [3x Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult (51pts)]

+ Fast Attack (185pts) +

Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (270pts) ++

+ Formation (270pts) +

Aspect Host (270pts) [+1 BS]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (90pts) [4x Swooping Hawk (64pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (90pts) [4x Swooping Hawk (64pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (90pts) [4x Swooping Hawk (64pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]

++ Harlequins - Codex (Formation Detachment) (260pts) ++

+ Formation (260pts) +

Cast of Players (260pts) [Death Jester (60pts)]
Shadowseer (105pts) [Haywire grenades (5pts), Mastery Level 2 (25pts), Shuriken Pistol, The Mask of Secrets (15pts)]
Troupe (95pts)
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Troupe Master (35pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]

Still have 133 points to use. Could spend it upgrading the scats and cast, what do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 12:27

Your swooping hawks aren't priced right(I didn't check other units, so you might want to double-check). You need 6 models in each squad to get the large blast template on their grenade pack attack. You won't always use it, but it's amazing when you run into a unit with a 2+ cover save. It's profile:
24" range, S4, AP4, Assault 1, Large Blast/Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover, Skyburst
Skyburst: This shooting attack does not need line of sight. If the unit consists of at least six
models with a grenade pack, the attack has the Large Blast special rule instead of the Blast
special rule.


And it is an attack made in their movement phase in ADDITION to their normal shooting attacks during the shooting phase, which MAY target something else if you can't target your prior target. It's also easy to arrange not being able to target your previous target because the grenade pack has 24 inch range, and their other guns have 18" range. So you just start 24" away, or out of line of sight before you throw the grenade pack. Then you can shoot their other 18 laser shots at something else, or throw a haywire grenade and charge something else.

Each swooping hawk unit should be 5 Swooping hawks(80) + an Exarch(26) for 106 points total, and 6 models.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That leaves you with 85 points instead of 133. I'd drop the haywire grenade off of the succubus and buy a unit of 3 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with vibro cannons for 90 points. They will average 2 S8 AP3 pinning hits per turn at 48", but more importantly they'll give you a unit with T7 and 12 wounds with a 3+ armour save. It will keep you from getting tabled while you're waiting on your cavalry to arrive.

There is almost NOTHING in 40k that will shoot-to-kill that artillery unit in cover in the first turn, because even the gunners are considered toughness 7 against shooting as long as at least 1 artillery gun is left. And because there are more gunners than guns, the majority armour save is 5, so grav guns have trouble killing it too.

Their weakness, however, is against close combat. So if you end up playing someone who is running one of the formations that let's them charge on the first turn after deep striking or something, you need to use your other available units to bubble wrap it so it doesn't get assaulted turn 1. That's essentially the only way any opponent could table you before turn 2, short of miraculous "royal flush" style dice rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 12:54

+++ Super Cousins (1500pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) (365pts) ++

+ HQ (155pts) +

Succubus (155pts) [Archite glaive (20pts), Close Combat Weapon, The Archangel of Pain (25pts), Webway portal (35pts)] (Warlord, Dark Eldar Primary Detachment)

+ Troops (210pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

Kabalite Warriors (105pts) [5x Kabalite Warrior (40pts)]
Venom (65pts) [Splinter Cannon (10pts)]

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (557pts) ++

+ HQ (180pts) +

Autarch (75pts) [Banshee Mask (5pts), Shuriken Pistol]

Farseer (105pts) [Singing Spear (5pts)]

+ Troops (102pts) +

Windriders (51pts) [3x Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult (51pts)]

Windriders (51pts) [3x Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult (51pts)]

+ Fast Attack (185pts) +

Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)

+ Heavy Support (90pts) +

Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (90pts) [3x Support Weapon (90pts), Vibro Cannon]

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (318pts) ++

+ Formation (318pts) +

Aspect Host (318pts) [+1 BS]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (106pts) [5x Swooping Hawk (80pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (106pts) [5x Swooping Hawk (80pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]
Swooping Hawks with Exarch (106pts) [5x Swooping Hawk (80pts)]
Swooping Hawk Exarch (26pts) [Lasblaster]

++ Harlequins - Codex (Formation Detachment) (260pts) ++

+ Formation (260pts) +

Cast of Players (260pts) [Death Jester (60pts)]
Shadowseer (105pts) [Haywire grenades (5pts), Mastery Level 2 (25pts), Shuriken Pistol, The Mask of Secrets (15pts)]
Troupe (95pts)
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Player (15pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
Troupe Master (35pts) [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]

Damn that looks pretty nasty.

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PostSubject: Re: Need some advice   Mon Apr 11 2016, 13:33

Yeah, I think it looks pretty solid. The autarch, succubus and farseer are all going in the cast of players, right? I'd consider rolling on sanctic on the farseer, and telepathy on the shadowseer. Pretty much everything in the sanctic discipline is super-helpful to that unit, particularly +1 to invuln saves, the nova attack, and +2S hammerhand. But I wouldn't blame you if you wanted to take telepathy on the farseer and the unique one on the shadowseer. It gives you more potential for leadership shenanigans.

Try not to forget to call for pinning checks if you fire the vibro cannons at infantry. I personally have a tendency to forget during games, and a lot of people seem to think space marines auto-pass pinning checks. They don't. Wink

Good luck man, and let us know what you decide to use, and how you do!

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