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 Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)

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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Mon Apr 04 2016, 22:57

Alrighty...

Building toward an 1850 tournament around here in a few months.

I'll likely run this in my next game, to see how it stacks up. I'm having a bit of trouble with this list, basically trying to have my cake and eat it too in terms of having 'a couple big things' and a 'swarm of small things' a kind of hammer/anvil approach. My hope is that the Dreamer and one other character will buff the Reavers appropriately, making the investment in a large unit of otherwise kinda lacklustre dudes pay off when psychics come into it... I used to do something quite similar with CWE, anchoring my line with 20 guardians and farseer in support of a WLord. This list is like that, but with twice the crazy aggression.

I haven't used the scalpel squadron yet, but I do think it will help me substantially to get the drop on a few lists around here that have beaten me mostly on first turn success. Actual null deployment is now something I can consider! Don't know why I forgot about this formation; I started this list testing by trying to get some Corsair 'pseudo-trueborn' blaster-venoms to pay off... now I just have to convert some Wracks (?)

Depending on how my next game turns out, I may nix the big blaster mob and go all-in on an MSU list...

C&C welcome

CAD (CWE)

Farseer - bike - 120

2x4 bikes - 7 scatter - 206

LOW

Wraithknight - 295 (Dragon Prince)


Titan Burner Coterie (Corsairs)

Prince - shadow field - sabre - psychic - (drugs) - bike - 165

Dreamer - j. pack - shimmer - lvl 2 - 90

20 Reavers - 7 blaster - haywire - drugs - 320

Hornet - dual pulse - kinetic/burner - 100

Nightwing - 125

Warp Hunter - 185


Scalpel Squadron - extra cannons - 240

(1846)

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Thu Apr 14 2016, 06:35

Hi there Doctor,

There's two things that jump out at me with your list.

1 - Your coterie is for anti tank, but only Jetbikes and Infantry actually get this rule, and you only have 2 of these units included in your Corsairs. So you could consider taking a different coterie with other bonuses to get more benefit, or include more Infantry/Jetbike/Jetpack units that take advantage of Tank Hunters.

2 - You're putting 20 models in a unit that has atrocious chances of rallying thanks to the Corsair dual leadership mechanic and a 5++ save which only endures so long as their Void Dreamer does. So their chances of sticking around for more than a turn are low.

They also have 7! Blasters and no Fusion guns, so they're probably going to overkill any 'regular' vehicle they shoot at, but not be overly reliable at stripping multiple hull points against Super Heavies (lack of AP1)

If I were investing in 20 of them, then yeah I do like the Shimmershield for the 5++. It's risky giving it to the Void Dreamer though, because any challenges in combat or precision shots that pick him off, or unlucky Perils of the Warp rolls, are going to completely screw your unit.

And the Void Dreamer having Jetpack when the Reavers don't is also a little odd.

I would consider including a Baron with the Shimmershield, and a 5pt Felarch (you're already committing a lot of points to the unit, why not go big) to tank challenges and have some back up Ld plan if Perils gets you.

Nonetheless, the rest of the list has some promise. I'm curious to see if you've managed to get any games in with your list? How did your Reavers turn out after all?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Thu Apr 14 2016, 06:54

I really want to like drugs charts, and this one is certainly better than others *cough*(ours), but I just can't get past the random chance of it sucking.

The only reason I can stomach the random psychic powers is because you can take ML3-4 psykers that just let you take 3-4 powers from the list, thereby mitigating the risk by just having half the results.

That's what DE and Corsairs need for their drugs. We need a dope dealer upgrade character that let's us take an additional dice on the drugs chart, sort of like upgrading psychic mastery levels. Very Happy

*Doper Level 2 Achievement Unlocked!*

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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Thu Apr 14 2016, 21:46

Yeah... good points there, hydranixx - thanks.

I don't know about you, but I do NOT find seven blasters to be overkill on many vehicles. Between 1/3 chance of missing and up to a 4+ cover save in addition to glancing MBTs (AV12+) on 4s, even with a buff from a psychic power or two I'm just about ON AVERAGE nuking one vehicle each turn. For every time it's overkill I'm pretty sure there'll be one where it's 'just enough' lol. Superheavies are why god invented haywire... after softening in round 1-2, 20 haywire attacks at I5 should do it...

I keep wondering whether it's better to do something like this with one big mob unit, or to just all-in MSU and forget about it... but I'll wait until I've tried the 20-man blob before I decide.

As to strategy more generally, it's worth noting that I plan on moving my Farseer into the big Mob once they're on to max out on the buffing capacity. Things are pretty Death-Starry around here, in addition to being heavy on the grav, so this unit is my final crack at a proper 'spoiler' unit to come in out of Reserves and start tearing up the place.

At the end of the day I basically have to choose between 20 infantry dudes with mad upgrades (haywire and drugs) or 2x5 jet pack guys with flamers and no haywire, and much more limited buffing potential. In my experience, units like that are just not quite effective enough for a pseudo-competitive scene, unless they're for scoring and not much else. Light scoring for my list is hopefully a job for scalpel and jetbikes.

One other idea would be dropping the drugs for the Portal and bringing 2x10 guys with haywire out of reserve in midfield after 'planting the flag' in first turn. It'd give me one more unit but once again diminish the buffing potential... and would also mean that I'd have to put the Prince on the field first turn, whereas currently I'm all set for null deployment.

My final idea is to get my two falcons finally painted up and use them as dedicated transports... one each in two coteries, with one rocking the Warp Hunter and the other a Firestorm lol. That'd be more for a pure Corsair list tho...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Fri Apr 15 2016, 01:55

Dr.Clock wrote:
I don't know about you, but I do NOT find seven blasters to be overkill on many vehicles

Then you may as well bring the 8th Blaster too, or replace some/all of the Blasters with Fusion Guns. I know the range deficit hurts a bit, but the AP1 alone is a massive step up, let alone the melta rule. The lack of range only matters if they're a backfield unit, and well, you don't usually spend 320+ pts on 20 man backfield unit with predominately 12" and 18" guns anyway.

Dr.Clock wrote:
I keep wondering whether it's better to do something like this with one big mob unit, or to just all-in MSU and forget about it... but I'll wait until I've tried the 20-man blob before I decide.

As to strategy more generally, it's worth noting that I plan on moving my Farseer into the big Mob once they're on to max out on the buffing capacity. Things are pretty Death-Starry around here, in addition to being heavy on the grav, so this unit is my final crack at a proper 'spoiler' unit to come in out of Reserves and start tearing up the place.

If you're playing them for buffs and from reserve, then this is even more of a reason to consider playing Melta type weapons in this unit. I think they'd do pretty well with this.

I have another idea for you to tinker with as well, seeing as you're stacking 20+ haywire grenades and seem to have trouble with tanks, which is to focus more than one tank each turn.

Here's how I'd do it:

Take the Prince with the Reaper First Prince rule instead.

Once you've shot 8 blasters/meltas at (and hopefully utterly destroyed) one vehicle, use their Reckless Abandon move to side step towards another vehicle and put it within 8". You may now legally charge it, and with 20 haywires they're unlikely to fail to kill, well, anything with an armour value.

The addition of psyker support and the 5++ means that even specialist anti infantry weapons or explodes results on vehicles isn't really going to stop all 20 Reavers.

I don't think the Drugs really give enough, and I would actually rather pay for Void Enhanced Armour on the off chance you get mauled by things like frag grenades, hand flamers, Wyverns, Grotzookas, "Crash and Burn" flyers that land on you etc. Those sorts of things can easily get over 15models at one time.

Between 20 models, Void Enhanced Armour only costs half a pt per model and I think that's a good 10 pt investment when you're already paying over 300 for them.

Just food for thought though.

I really like the idea you're running with, because these 20 guys won't die easily and have a tonne of damage against literally all types of enemy units. It's a pity that Hardened Mesh Armour upgrade is 5pts a model, which makes it another 100pts to include, because that would be an incredibly good combo with the Void Enhanced Armour to shrug off flamers, frag missiles, monoscythe missiles etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Tue Apr 19 2016, 05:02

Thanks again;

I've been on a bit of a Corsair hiatus, but I'll be back to them soon enough.

I want to give the 20 man unit a shot using both Drugs and the Portal... and I'll play around with melta vs. blasters as well.

The void enhanced armour does appear to actually stack with the shimmer shield as well - giving a 5++ re-rollable against templates seems pretty damn helpful, really, and makes them a holy terror to 'blast' our of cover. If heavy mesh was 2 or 3 points, it might make sense. Ho hum.

In essence, I think you've sold me on 20 dudes w/ meltas, haywire and hardened armor. My gut still wants combat drugs... but the portal could be pretty sa-weet, if a little too easy to predict, and risky for the Prince.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.


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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Tue Apr 19 2016, 21:37

Can you guys tell me what you mean by "void enhanced armour"?

There is a voidplate harness, and there is an option in the troop listing for "Void Hardened Armour", but no explanation of what "Void Hardened Armour" is.


EDIT: Nevermind, googled it. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Wed Apr 20 2016, 01:14

Dr.Clock wrote:
The void enhanced armour does appear to actually stack with the shimmer shield as well - giving a 5++ re-rollable against templates seems pretty damn helpful, really, and makes them a holy terror to 'blast' our of cover. If heavy mesh was 2 or 3 points, it might make sense. Ho hum.

Are you sure about this? I wonder if there's any FAQ's discussing this...

If this is true... Our humble Reaver Corsair can become tougher than Terminators against some a lot of weaponry.

"So, I'm out of cover, and you've got a plasma cannon? Oh no, abject terror consumes me."


Dr.Clock wrote:
In essence, I think you've sold me on 20 dudes w/ meltas, haywire and hardened armor. My gut still wants combat drugs... but the portal could be pretty sa-weet, if a little too easy to predict, and risky for the Prince.

I assume you mean Void Hardened Armour, not hardened armour right? There's no reason to take hardened armour with 20 models, when a Jetpack is literally the same price, offers the same buff to the armour save, and also gives all the delicious mobility that we all know and love them for.

I really like the idea of Void Hardened Armour & Haywire Grenades on 20-strong Reaver squads, without exception, because it's 1.75 pts per model to gain the reroll and nades on all models. It's weird how the Corsair codex has some of the upgrades per unit as opposed to per model, but it's awesome for us! The drugs have a similar costing, so it's still worth considering. It's just a little bit hit or miss, as the Toughness drug is the only one we *really* want in this unit.

It goes without saying that 20 dudes with high initiative and haywire grenades are EXCEPTIONAL at eating vehicles. You can take out an entire parking lot in one go, because multicharging vehicles with models using grenades has no drawbacks. 20 guys should be able to handle 3-5 vehicles in one phase alone, in addition to completely ruining one other vehicle or unit on the turn they arrive with their Meltas and pistols.

However, I think running 20 of them (with 12" guns, no less) is a waste of their potential if they have to footslog across the entire board. They're also super risky coming in from Deepstrike because they may be held in reserve half the game, and when they show up, their footprint is obscenely large and could very easily mishap. (especially seeing as they want to be within 6" of vehicles). I think the only way to reliably use 20 such Reavers is in a Sky Burners Coterie for better accuracy. This lets you put most of your meltas close enough for melta range, but far enough that you won't die if it explodes. You then get to re arrange the unit with your RA move to protect the meltas, and possibly get into cover.



For me, I think I'm going to be playing 2 or 3 units of 10 Reavers with Jet Packs, VEA, 4 melta guns, a Felarch to tank challenges, and an attached Baron holding a Shimmershield. It's not cheap, but they're very resilient, (even more so if the reroll for invul saves is true), extremely mobile, dangerous to every non-flyer unit type, and also reliable as to when and where they arrive (skyburners coterie)

It's tempting to throw on haywire grenades as well, but then the unit itself comes at a cost of 25 per model (including the shimmershield baron). Currently, this unit would be 250pts, and does cover the coterie's Baron tax, even managing to use him for something that's actually useful.

Both units go against my usual ethos of making basically all Eldar units MSU, but I think with the way some of the Corsair upgrades are costed, it could be definitely be worth it. Mini deathstars incoming!

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Wed Apr 20 2016, 02:56

Void hardened armour is just for the campaign. Or whichever one is 10pts for a whole unit to get the good save. Not used in regular 40k.

Void hardened just the 4+?

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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Prince and Friends (1850)   Wed Apr 20 2016, 04:53

They worded it poorly imo; there's 3 separate armour entries.

Hardened Armour - Armour granting a 4+ save.

Voidplate Harness/Armour? - Armour granting a 3+ save, re rolls to difficult & dangerous terrain, and lose fleet.

Void Hardened Armour - Re roll armour (and maybe invul?) against shooting attacks that come from template or blast weapon types such as a frag missile or flamer.


It does mention it has bonus effects in Zone Mortalis if you play that specific game type, but it seems as though that is just an add-on to the existing properties of VHA ie the saving throw reroll, which would appear to apply in all game types.

Are you saying that Void Hardened Armour can't be bought as an upgrade in regular games? Where does it say it's only for the campaign?

EDIT :

I found an FAQ from Forgeworld regarding a handful of things in the book. VHA was in it, and it seems to be legit to use in regular games.

Question:
"There are a couple of items listed in this book that don't have rules. The Agile special rule does not have an explanation (Page 170), and neither does Void Hardened Armour (Page 172)."

Answer:
"Agile confers a +1 to the cover save granted by the Jink rule. Void Hardened Armour has extra rules when used in Zone Mortalis bases scenarios but otherwise allows re-rolls to save against Blast and Template weapons. Units with this armour reduce the distance rolled for charges, sweeping advances and run moves by 1"

I'm relieved to see it'll still work in regular games :3

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