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 New player! Need help with 1850 list!

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 11:27

Hey everyone!

Im new here, new to the world of 40k, and new to DE... my noob level is over 9000.

I got into the hobby at the beginning of the year, and through miniswap Ive managed to collect a decent amount of models, Ive also played a couple of 750-1000 pt games. However, Im looking to expand to an 1850 pt army, so I was wondering if I could get alittle guidance!

Here she is:

HQ

1. 2x Medusa
In Venom, w/ dual SC

Troops

1. 10x Kabs w/ SC
In Raider w/ Splinter racks

2. 10x Kabs w/ SC
In Raider w/ Splinter racks

3. 10x Kabs w/ SC
In Raider w/ Splinter racks

4. 5x Kabs w/ Blaster
In Venom w/ Dual SC

5. 5x Kabs w/ Blaster, w/ Sybarite (Warlord)
In Venom w/ Dual SC

Fast Attack

1. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

2. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

3. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

4. 6x Reavers w/ 2x Caltrops

5. 6x Reavers w/ 2x Caltrops

Heavy Support

1. Ravager w/ 3x DL

2. Ravager w/ 3x DL

3. Ravager w/ 3x DL

Total points =1847

So the idea behind this is to run the army in 6 separate platoons/forces
Platoons 1,2, and 3: 10xkabs Raider, 5xScourge, and Ravager
Platoon 4, and 5: 5 xkabs Venom, 6xReavers
Platoon 6: Medusa

The platoons will be organize in order of weapon distance (Rav>Raider>scourge) Ill be able to maximize my shooting by being able to threaten anything (AT, or AI) with each platoon: pop a transport with the scourge and/or ravager, let the raider rain poison on the troops. By organizing my army this way, my opponent will hopefully have a hard time prioritizing his attacks, as everything is pretty much equal. That being said, if a situation comes up that it would be beneficial to split up the platoons, Id obviously do that.

The venom/reaver platoons are for cleaning up leftovers, stripping the last hull point off of a high value vehicle/transport, or objective grabbing.

The Medusa squad will deep strike, except if im going against a drop pod army, in which case Ill just leave it around my platoons as a deterrent/to melt rhine face if they drop near me.

Obviously this list is lacking on AA, so would possibly switching out a unit of scourge, and the 2 kabalite blasts for a razorwing be advisable? Or will I have enough DL's to semi-reliably snap shoot flyers?

Any/all advice an critiques are appreciated, thanks!!
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 13:00

Welcome to the Dark City! I hope you've brought your knives and a dark sense of humour pirat

Your list is good. Like, definitely better than "my noob level is over 9000."

There's only one real tweak to think about

Your Splinter Raiders.
Each Raider is likely to be moving every turn, so Splinter Cannons lose a lot of their effectiveness immediately. You can only fire 18" so it's even weaker than Splinter Rifles at mid range shooting. Their Raiders themselves are really fragile and if it explodes... so yeah I'd replace your 3 Splinter Cannons with Night Shields for each Raider so it's harder to kill.

As for Anti-Air, a single Razorwing isn't likely to do enough at 1850 pts. 3 of them, yeah they might help out, but only 2 Dark Lances apiece means they're not reliable against air targets, all of which can Jink. So, no. One Razorwing doesn't bring enough anti air to the table if that's what you're concerned about.

The Razorwings greatest strength is the ability to show up and throw 4 large blast missiles at your opponent's face as it enters and and then fly around taking pot shots with it's remaining guns.

Dark Eldar movement, much, much more so than our Dark Lances, are how we beat Flyers.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 16:43

I agree with half of what hydranixx said! Very Happy

I consider making the opposing flyer jink a win, so I like the dark lances on a single jetfighter.

Other than that, I've recently become opposed to 10 warriors in raiders. When looking at the numbers, they only average 3 more hits than 5 warriors in a venom when they're both inside rapid fire range, even with their rerolls. Outside of rapid fire range, the raider warriors quickly become outclassed, and they're 60 points extra for the typical setup(10 warriors, raider w/NS & Racks). In your case, they're only 45 points more, but you have 3 of them, so that's 135 points you could spend on something else if you switched them over.

I'd switch those, and try to reorganize your list into 2 CADs instead of the realspace raiders detachment so that you can get objective secured on all your troops. It's a really important, powerful ability. The more other people don't get it, the more powerful it becomes. So every time they print a detachment or formation that DOESN'T get objective secured, obsec gets a little more powerful. Wink


P.S. Also, a kitten dies every time you put a single blaster on a group of kabalite warriors with splinter rifles. It's inefficient because you're either wasting splinter shots or blaster shots depending on what you're shooting at, so you typically only ever want to do it in very limited circumstances, like when you simply CAN'T find another way to spend 15 leftover points or something.

::Goes to kill 2 kittens::

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 21:18

Thanks guys! Years of university have made me good at research, and years of starcraft and muay thai have made me a decent tactician.... I still consider myself a noob nontheless haha

Yea, Ive heard mixed reviews over the splinter racks raiders, but they are something that Ive been trying out lately (to varying degrees of success). If I find that if I set up the 3 of them within 24" of each other, I can get some good synergy going. Also, against aggressive, infantry type armies such as space wolves (which I see alot of, with the new wulfen crap) and drop pods, they typically can maximize their potential. Also, in a list like this, I see them sitting and taking shots once set up, while the reavers and venoms take objectives. Ill give it a couple play tests, likely be proven wrong, then switch it up to more venoms + something else haha

Damn good point about getting 2 CADs, Ill try to switch up the list to get that every so sweet obsec, Ill even kill a kitten for my previous sins.

As for the Blaster Venoms, Ive actually read some of you other comments about them haha (Im watching you, son), those comments have been very helpful! For a normal list, Id definitely agree; keep kabs doing kabby things.

However, with this list, since the venoms and reavers are my primary scoring units, they will be getting up close and personal, (only to die in a kab fueled fire the next turn), so they wont be chilling back the 36"/24" popping off shots. I think that the extra AT and TEQ potential, and versatility will be beneficial.

haha killing kitties is my favourite pass-time, next to dressing up as Michael Jackson and reenacting the spaghetti scene from Lady and the Tramp with my dog! So have at er'!
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 21:37

So with the new dual CAD set up:

CAD 1

HQ

1. 2x Medusa
In Venom w/ S.C

Troops

1. 5xKabs w/blaster
In Venom w/ S.C, w/ Chain Snares

2. 5x Kabs w/ Blaster, w/Sybarite w/ HWG
In Venom w/ S.C

Fast Attack

1. 6x Reavers w/2 caltrops

2. 6x Reavers w/2 caltrops

Heavy Support

1. Ravager w/ 3x DL

CAD 2
HQ

1. 1x Lham

Troops

1. 10x kabs w/ S.C
In Raider w/ splinter racks

2. 10x kabs w/ S.C
In Raider w/ splinter racks

3. 9x Kabs
In Raider w/splinter racks
***Lham goes here***

Fast Attack

1. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

2. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

3. 5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire

Heavy Support

1. Ravager w/ 3 DL

2. Ravager w/ 3 DL

Total= 1848

The more I look at those SC Raiders, the more I see your guys point haha, ill give it a play test or 2.

So I added the lham, who got thrown into the raider (after dropping SC and 1 kab), and gave the Sybarite a HWG, and other kab venom chain snares. I find shock prows to be extremely useful, so we will see how chain snares work out!

Thanks for the help guys, and any other tweeks or advice is welcome!

Carry on, my wayward sons.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Sun Apr 03 2016, 22:20

Lham can't go in the raider with the 9 kabs because the Lham isn't an independent character.

I'd drop that entire raider full of warriors to get your Lham a venom w/2 splinter cannons, and drop the blasters off your other warrior squads. Also, the splinter cannons on the raider warriors are a waste of points.

If you make the above changes, you can afford another ravager in the second CAD to replace the blasters you lost off the warrior squads. Now you have 33% MORE lance fire at 36" instead of 18", 2 additional splinter rifles, and the ability to fire at targets that your poison will always be able to hurt without wasting anything.

Oh, and an extra 14 points leftover you can do whatever with.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 00:03

Splinter Rack Raiders are good when you know you're up against flying Daemon or Nid spam; that's when twinlinked poison pays for itself. But in other scenarios, Kabalites on Venoms are superior.

As they're either 105pts or 120 pts (depending on Blasters or lack thereof) you can fulfil both CAD's troop requirements for only 420pts or 480pts respectively.

By my calculation your troop choices come to 732pts currently, so switching them up for 4 Kabalite units on Venoms saves you 252, or 312 if you ditch the Blasters.

Right off the bat, there's another 2 Ravagers for you, even if the Kabalites keep the 4 Blasters. If you did decide to leave the Blasters at home, another 60pts almost buys the Lhamean herself a Venom. Leave one Ravager with 3 Disintegrators (you only have four other tri Dark Lance Ravagers...) to save 15 more pts, and have you still have enough pts spare to upgrade to an Arena Champion or Syrabite in one unit for your Warlord.

Just food for thought, hope it helps Smile

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 03:33

Both of your advice has definitely helped! Ill be playing some games tomorrow with the 2nd list (another guy from the LGS is letting me use some of his ghetto DE to fill what I ont have), except that ill have 10 kabs, in the previous 9 kab raider, and ill just foot slog the Lham, drop her on an objective near/in my backfield and go to ground... ideal, no, but w.e lol

So ill try out my list tomorrow, then probably make a list up with the recommendations that you guys have given, i.e., 3 venoms in the platoons as opposed to the raiders, all 3 of which will not have blasters. Only the 2 reaver platoon venoms will have blasters because they are meant to get up close.

Just a question, would it not be more beneficial to spend the remaining points on either, switching the lham for 2 medusa and a venom + a razorwing, or something like that? I feel as though 5 Ravagers, w/ 4 units of scourge is kinda over kill for AT, as both scourge and ravagers are fairly limited in their use apart from AT (at least compared to some other, more versatile options)

Thanks again for putting up with stupid questions and helping out!
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 05:32

Ok guys, here is the finalized list ill be playing tomorrow!

CAD 1

HQ

1. Medusa
In Venom

TROOPS

1. 5 Kabs
In Venom w/ SC

2. 5 Kabs
In Venom w/ SC

3. 5 Kabs
In Venom w/SC

FAST ATTACK

1. 5 Scourge w/ 4 haywire

2. 5 Scourge w/ 4 haywire

3. 5 Scourge w/ 4 haywire

Heavy Support

1. Ravager w/ 4 DL

2. Ravager w/ 4 DL

3. Ravager w/ 4 DL

CAD 2

HQ

1. Medusa
In Venom

TROOPS

1. 5 Kabs w/ Blaster
In Venom w/ SC

2. 5 Kabs w/ Blaster
In Venom w/ SC

FAST ATTACK

1. 6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops

2. 6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops

3. Razorwing w/ 2 DL

I know that the medusas venoms don't have secondary splinter cannons, but I don't expect them to be sticking around for long anyways, and the razorwing will more than make up for that. I could have replaced the blasters, but again, in the role that those kabs will be playing, I feel as though they are necessary.

Better, worse? let me know, and thanks again!
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 05:54

You could make the fifth ravager have disentegrator cannons instead of dark lances if you feel like you have enough anti-tank. That's 9 shots of S5 AP2 space marine eraser.

That said, if you aren't killing all your opponent's vehicles on turn 1, you probably could use more anti-tank. The thing about AT is, it's usually mounted on vehicles. So if you have a bunch of ravagers yourself, and you kill all your opponent's vehicles, there is a good possibility he doesn't have much else to attack your ravagers back with. And even dark lance ravagers are good at taking out space marines, termies, etc. Just not good for hordes. But poison is. Wink

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, I feel like I'd be doing you a disservice not to tell you this, especially when you're about to spend money fleshing out a force:

My primary complaint with pure DE right now is our lack of options to deal with gargantuan creatures. We have 2 weapons in the entire book that can reliably hurt them. 1 is the ichor injector that can only be taken on Urien and a Talos(who can't really catch a wraithknight that doesn't want to be caught). The other are ossefactors, but they're 1 shot weapons on wracks that can only be taken 1 per squad...People might THINK dark lances would hurt them, but they're sort of banging their head against a wall with those, too. A wraithknight in cover requires roughly 10 dark lance shots per wound you want to remove, on average. So, to kill a wraithknight reliably in a single turn using nothing but dark lances, you'd need 60 of them. Ossefactors are slightly better than that, able to reliably kill a wraithknight in cover with only 33 shots on average. That means you only have to take 165 wracks to kill a wraithknight in one turn. Using poison from warriors in gunboats with splinter racks requires about 2150 points worth of warriors in rapid fire range to kill a wraithknight in 1 round. Very Happy

Here is the point of all that:
If you have a lot of wraithknights and/or tau gargantuan creatures in your meta, I'd suggest taking allies.

If your local meta bans gargantuan creatures or something, pure dark eldar should be fine, and plenty of fun to play!

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 06:01

ahh, id be hesitant to take out any AT, with the possible exception of the DLs on the razorwing, but ill have to play test this list out first!

That being said, when you say "add dissies" I face palmed alittle bit haha

Already on it, my friend, I picked up some warp spiders from miniswap, and a bunch of harlys (troups, and the elites) not too long ago! However, before really going down the allies route, I want to finish collecting and painting 1850 worth of DE, and get some solid table top experience.

So im assuming that you atleast semi-approve of my list?

thanks again!
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Mon Apr 04 2016, 18:03

Yeah, the list should be good against most things that don't have gargantuan creatures like wraithknights.

It also might be a bit weak versus a competitive necron list with lot's of rules that stack their reanimation protocol bonuses, but the lances will give at least the T4 elements of that a penalty to those rolls.

When I said dissies, I meant disintegrator cannons. I don't know what you thought I meant. Either way, good luck and let us know how it goes!

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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Tue Apr 05 2016, 05:15

lol I know, I was just commenting on the irony of throwing in a dissie ravagers when I just replaced 4 dissie raiders haha

So I got two games in, first was against an ork green tide with a bunch of cannons (10-15, ffs). First turn I pushed up as far as I could with everything minus the ravagers, which took out 3 of the traktor cannons (or w.e the crazy AT ones are called). My reavers went as far into his back field as possible to try to deal with the cannons nexts turn. Blaster venoms and medusas split into their platoons and each took a flank for objective grabbing, everything else stayed fairy central. The ork player didnt give a crap about objectives, and just wanted to wipe the board green lol. After that, I would back up incrementally with his tide, staying just outside of max move range w/ charge. Continued like this for 2 turns, I hit my back line, then sprinted to the board corners. I ended up pretty much tabling him, and winning on objectives, but it was a damn fun game!

Next game was against a dual demi-company (i think?) white scar army, but it only had 8 bikes, including 1 chaplain, and the samurai white scar HQ dude, everything else was in rhinos and razors backs, oh, and he had the pyscker assassin. This game was alot more competitive, but I targeted his grav toting dev squads first, and managed to take out alot of his heavy AT early on (losing all scourge by rnd 2, but meh). The biggest winners of this game, were the reavers. I went 6 reavers v.s. 3 bikes +HQ, both times the reavers won by the end of my opponents following turn (splinter  fire, then HoW hits, then cc are brutal.....), then they mopped up 2-3 man taq squad. I won by 2 points, but had maybe 400pts more of my army left than he did.

All in all, Im very happy with the list you guys help out with! Thanks for the advise and patience guys!

next step.... is to buy and paint up the models which I was borrowing (reavers, 2 of the ravagers, razorwing, 2 venom, and convert some medusa)

P.S sorry about the rant
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Tue Apr 05 2016, 06:42

Congratulations! I'd loved to see that game

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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Tue Apr 05 2016, 15:56

Congrats on the wins!

Just for the record, reavers winning in CC the round AFTER they charge against a space marine bike squad + HQ is atypical.

Normally if there is a character left after your HOW and attacks in the first round, 2-4 reavers are going to die simply due to only having a 5+ armour save. Almost all characters have AP better than that, so they disallow saves completely against reavers. Then in the following round during their turn, you've got far less models, not getting charge bonuses, getting 2 attacks each against T5 with a 3+ armour save. Wounding on 6's, you're unlikely to do a single wound that gets through, and will be slaughtered in the counterattack.

But hey, could always get lucky. Very Happy

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: New player! Need help with 1850 list!   Tue Apr 05 2016, 17:02

Thanks!

Yea, I had considered running after my assault phase, but he had flamers in his half dead taq sqauds close by, so I risked staying in combat, planning on losing a model or 2 (which I did in my cc phase), running out after his cc phase, then coming back in on mine to finish off the HQs, or shooting him up with some poison if all the reavers died. I definitely got lucky, as both HQ have a 3+/4++ iirc, but were both on 1 wound, so it paid off!

Thanks again for all the help, guys!
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