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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sat Apr 02 2016, 21:39

I really like the look of the Razorwing, myself, and feel that one is the right number for this list. I'm not sure if I would rather take the lances off the ravager, or, take them off the fighter, which it seems like the presented option would do.

The benefits for the lances on the fighter would be stronger anti air, on the ravager, stronger.........uh.....well gee, I'm not really seeing a benefit for it keeping the lances, am I missing something?

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 00:45

Nope, you're right, which is why I recommended swapping them out on the ravager and putting the lances on the jetfighter. Against ground targets, there is virtually no difference, but against air, the lance jetfighter configuration is far superior. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 01:26

Alright, I'll be doing that then!

Thank you very much, that gave me a good starting point to jump off of.

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 01:51

@betraytheworld  What makes it more optimal on the fighter?

I figure on a ravager w dark lances:

You have the option of turn one use,  you stay specialized, and you can be parked in cover.

You already have 2 dissies on the raiders and isnt the fighter going to jink as soon as it gets targeted anyways?  Wouldnt you rather get 6 str 8 (strength 5) ap 2 snapshots than 2 str 8 ap 2 snapshots that dont get to benefit from the lance special rule (cant think of many flyers that would have 13 or higher AV).  Even if you werent snapshooting wouldnt you still statistically get more str 8 hits with dissies which would mean more chances to pen?  The only exception being av13+ flyers (honestly not sure how common this is)  All this is also gambling on you coming in after the enemies flyer comes in because after that you'll be jinking anyways.

Am I missing something?  Are av 13+ flyers much more of an issue than I think?  This is all considering you are 100% taking one of each and the only question being where the two dissies would go.

Not saying youre wrong, just wondering why.


Last edited by WhysoSully on Sun Apr 03 2016, 02:03; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 02:00

I'm confused with what is going on. Dissies are just strength 5, not strength 8, so I'm not sure what is going on.

The benefit of the flyer is that unless they have skyfire, they are actually harder to hit and a little more mobile.

They can also put the hurt on other fliers.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 02:14

I edited it but still, even at str 5, I would rather have 6 shots instead of 2 on the flyer.

You might be a flyer but after you jink you are still hitting on 6's the next turn.

I always looked at razorwings as terrible anti air, great anti infantry.  Youre basically paying for the missiles and something for your enemy to shoot at instead of other units.  It becomes useless the turn after it comes in...

I still feel like 3 chances on average to roll 5+ is better than 1 chance on average at 2+ (assuming full BS, 6 shots at 3 to hit vs 2 shots at 3 to hit even though the 6 shots need 5 to glance 6 to wound assuming AV 10)  With the dissie you at least have a chance at destroying 3 HP and can still get lucky on a 6 w the ap 2.

You already have dissies on the ground, why take lances off the ground and put them in reserves on a ship that will jink 100% of the time.

Its just too luck based based for me.  You are giving up the specialty of the ship to focus a situation that is so specific.

What will your grots kill if you cant pop transports the first turn?

What happens if their flyer comes on the board after you jinked?

What happens if they didnt bring a flyer? (many races have skyfire or interceptor on ground units)


With the lances on the ravager you still get full use of the points you spent.

Putting them on the razorwing just doesnt synergize with the list in my opinion.  I would much rather take the 100% chance of using them on the ravager than the "if they have flyer, if you didnt jink, if you made your reserves roll" flyer.  Its main job is anti infantry with the missiles, I just dont see the value in making it mediocre at something at the expense of the ravager (which I would remove if not running DL's on it.  Not only will your flyer be useless turn one, but now your ravager is useless as well and you have a smaller chance of cracking enough transports for your grotesques.

gotta keep DE units focused.  When you start trying to make our stuff good at everything (a ravager that can be anti infantry and anti tank, a flyer that is anti flyer and anti infantry) we lose what makes our units great.

If you are desperate for AA I would suck it up and ally CWE.  Flyer with 2+ jink against other flyers... Ill take three please. (there is literally a formation of three of them)


Last edited by WhysoSully on Sun Apr 03 2016, 09:14; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 02:26

Hm............

Alright, that's also a good point....

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 04:11

@WhySoSully : Your answer is a simple one - You don't jink with the jetfighter. If you're put in a position where you either jink and become useless for the rest of the game, possibly not even surviving with the jink anyhow, or don't jink, maybe survive, and maybe be useful, the choice is clear. If you HAVE to jink to have any chance of survival, then you do so and fly off the board so you can come back the following turn fresh, without having jinked. Bear in mind that ravagers can jink too, except they don't have the option to go into ongoing reserve, automatically arriving back on the board the following turn and moving 18" to 36" while still being able to fire 4 weapons.

Target priority is super-important when you're running flyers. Most people don't run a LOT of skyfire, since it stops them from firing at ground targets without snapfiring. So if your opponent has anti-air, shoot it turn 1, then come on turn 2 with impunity. So many people just never bother to shoot at a quad gun sitting there, and I have no idea why. It's a T7 2 wound model with a 3+ armour save. 3-4 Lance shots will kill it, costing your opponent 50 points and preventing you from losing your flyer.

Dissies are "OK" vs eldar, ork, and other DE flyers. Outside of that, AV 11, 12, and 13 flyers are pretty common, and dissies can only glance AV11 on a 6.

Putting the two lances on the jetfighter gives you reliable anti-air, and doesn't really take anything away from your ground game, except, as you noted, 2 shots of dark lances on the first turn, which it replaces with 6 dissie shots. I think that's a fair trade. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 06:44

Oh yeah, its always good to target your opponents AA when you have air, but at the same time if you didnt bring the air at all your opponent would be the one with the wasted points instead of you =P.

One of my main issues with it is the fact that it has to come from reserves.  On top of that, it is designed to kill enemies that are probably going to come from reserves(anti-air). Next, I worry about its efficiency points wise as the base model.  You need to get a lot of value out of it to make it work and to do that, it has to hit the board.

Now I will say that it has a good alpha strike and that can make up the value, but I would argue that with changing to DL's you are actually reducing the effectiveness of your missiles because you no longer have that finishing power to kill the models that the blast didnt kill.  It could be the difference between you killing two units or no units or even having to devote extra units to cleaning up the missile targets.  This becomes even more important in tactical objective games as it could be the difference between 1 vp and d3 vp.

It would have to be a "I love the model" choice if I used one in a list like this. Not that there is anything wrong with that.  With the grotesques you are probably going to have a unit or two tied up in combat (hopefully) by turn 2/3 which is going to further reduce the effectiveness even if you do get your reserves roll because there will be fewer targets for your missiles.

Taking allied flyers for AA would be my choice if I knew I was going to face lots of air.  If I was mono DE I would just come to grips with not having reliable AA lmao, I would focus on what I can do well which is eat up the tasty infantry and blast away the heavy weapons that threaten the grots.  

Eldar have some nice AA options that arent even flyers.  Been looking at a couple things in between posts.  EML's look like that got a huge buff having the skyfire option, expensive though.



Also about jinking.  I have too man.  I just know I am the guy that would die to bolt guns.  Sad   Why our crazy jetfighter that stikes fear into the hearts of entire races... Can die to a bolt gun.  Just doesnt make sense.  Id rather snapshot than no shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 06:57

But it's NOT solely designed to kill other things that are coming from the air. It can fire at ground tanks with those lances just as easily as a ravager can. It just has better options vs other air than the ravager.

And in those times when you don't need the lances because your opponent didn't bring lots of tanks, you can instead fire it's payload of 4 missiles while still firing your dissies from your ravager on the ground.

Are you giving up -something- by swapping them? Sure. But not much, compared to the tactical flexibility it offers vs a wider range of targets. Keep in mind we're talking about FMCs like daemons and tyranids as well, where the S5 of the dissie just doesn't cut it, and the lances from the ground hitting on 6's are a huge waste of points.

I don't like making lists that don't have an option to reliably take a single unit out but I don't think having "adequate" ammounts of anti-air is necessary all the time. However, if you have the points available in your list in a situation like this, I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't take it. The tradeoff is simply too close to being non-existent.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 09:11

The trade off is 1/3 your lance shots t1(at least) and 4 more shots into the units hit by the missiles and having split weaponry on two units.

Its the difference between cracking transports for your grots and scoring VP with the jetfighter, those four extra shots could be the reason you didnt have to devote a second unit to eliminating your target.

Honestly I would rather put it in a list where it could do its regular thing and not be forced into AA, I would rather ally real anti air. (which I know we dont have room for in this case)

Its a tool in the kit. I could see situations where each have their merits it really depends on what you are expecting to face. If OP expects air to be an issue, go for it or even better, magnetize your weapons and try out both. A lot of this comes down to how you use it.

In the end its just 10 points, but its interesting to really examine how it affects the units.


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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 15:15

If he were running 2-3 jetfighters, I'd agree with you on 1-2 of them. But like I said: If I have the option to give myself a tool for a situation without losing much, I'd take it. There are too many times when a single flyer is a "must kill" to not allow yourself a tool for it. For instance, against tyranids, many times their synapse creatures are flyers. If you can knock out their synapse quickly, you basically win the game.

As for the tradeoff, it's not exactly 1/3 because 1 lance stays on the ravager. It's 22% though. As for the 4 extra shots into the units hit by the jetfighter's missiles...that's a bit disingenuous since if the jetfighter drops all 4 missiles, they can't fire any other weapons.

The mixed weapons part is mostly a non-issue because the jetfighter has more weapons than it can fire in a single turn regardless of the weapon setup you use.

So essentially, having the lances on the jetfighter gives you anti-air, anti-tank, and anti-infantry options on the jetfighter that meet or exceed the capabilities of a lance ravager in all 3 categories while not losing the dissies from your army, since you put them on the ravager.

That said, he IS a touch light on anti-tank. I might consider dropping the aethersails to add a twin-linked haywire blaster to the talos.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 19:32

I've been watching this for some time now and taking some notes...and I have decided...

TO TAKE A VOID RAVEN BOMBER AND DROP A RAVAGER ALL TOGETHER, BRILLIANT!

Kidding, kidding, I'm sorry.

I'm probably going to go the Razorwing route for now and play test it.


I'm currently getting a wych cult list going...as...well, Honestly at heart I'm a melee player in this game.

I was going to make a archon army, swallow my Wych pride, and do an army mostly Archon related with some incubi and a court as well as full kabalites and scourge, too...not sure how I feel.

But for now, this is what I'd like to do. The models are beautiful, I can paint and showcase them on my upcoming painting blog, I can have my themes, and better still I can play!

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 21:53

I don't blame you one bit for liking wych models. They were what first sold me on playing DE. I like their fluff too. I have 60 of them sitting on my shelf collecting dust, because I don't play worthless units, but they're fantastic models, with really cool backstory to them.

My most desired 40k book right now, aside from a complete DE codex do-over, is a wych cult supplement.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Sun Apr 03 2016, 22:21

Amen to that.

I'm so confused at our seventh edition book compared to space marines and eldar.

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 05:30

Harlequin cast of players is a great assault unit.  Tax is the jester though, doesnt quite fit but you do get another haywire granade off him. It synergizes great with DE and isnt too expensive (about 300 points give or take how fancy you make it)  Lets you participate in the psyker phase as well.

As far as my 30% comment it meant 2 ravagers 3 lances on one 1 on the other = 4/6 or 2/3's the possible lances turn 1. Another haywire blaster would make it a little more confortable. I mainly am worried about the grots making it into combat. A lot of points to get shot up mid field should you fail to crack transports.

I was looking at the crimson formation with the 3 crimson hunters. Holy crap. Its a lot of points but man that would surely dominate the air and provide quite the distraction. I wonder if a null deployment leadership deathstar could hit hard enough supported by the crimson tide? formation (forget the name lol)
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 16:01

I did get some free Eldar stuff, I haven't really gone through, I think I have a ton of jetbikes and some banshees and warpspiders, but, alot of it is on sprues, so I dunno.

I don't think I got any craftworld fliers. Or Harlequins.

Not to say I couldn't get any, just, I'm not sure if I want to mix and match...

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 17:51

Korazell wrote:

Not to say I couldn't get any, just, I'm not sure if I want to mix and match...

For the record, if you're just looking for a fluffy list to paint and fool around with your friends with, pure DE is fine. It's also fine in a competitive meta where gargantuan creatures are banned. But in any meta that just follows the normal rules out of the book, or one of the major tournament circuit rulesets, mixing and matching is pretty much necessary to be competitive, in my opinion. The alternative is to simply have too many units for a wraithknight to really make any difference, and just ignore them, but that takes a very specific kind of spam list.

Dark Eldar simply can't reliably kill wraithknights or gargantuan creatures. I could go into all the math and reasons why, but just take my word for it, please. lol, I'm about to start writing articles on this site explaining all these things so I can just link to them when they come up.

That said, there are plenty of fluffy excuses you can come up with to have allied eldar, and even paint them with the same color scheme. Perhaps an obscure Eldar craftworld happened upon a Kabal or Coven during a battle, and said Kabal appeared to offer their craftworld kin assistance in said battle. In that moment, they saw a glimmer of hope for their dark kin and took it upon themselves to attempt to bring them back to the light. On the other side, the Archon of the Kabal recognizes what they're trying to do, and sees this as an opportunity to use said craftworld as a tool for his own devices. What results is an alliance with a fluffy internal power struggle for the hearts and minds of both the Eldar and Dark eldar involved in the alliance. And because eldar are so long-lived, such a struggle may have been going on for millenia, plenty long enough for the two to have developed a coordinated color scheme.  Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 19:19

Well, I'm pretty sure I have the option to combine the two armies, if I so chose, I'm just having a hard time justifying why to include DE when I could just run a straight CWE army.

As a general question, if I did two detachments in an army, one realspace raiders, one normal, so I could have 4 succubusus supported by heavy weapons and the rest troops as wyches and beast blob and reavers, would that work or is that illegal list building?


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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 19:39

That's legal by normal 40k rules, and is a "battle-forged army". But 40k allows unlimited detachmenta & formations, while many local game groups and major tournament circuits do not.

However, it's rare these days for a group not to allow at least 2 CAD-like detachments and a formation though. So you should be good to take something like what you suggested, plus possibly another formation/detachment in most cases.

As for justifying why to include DE as opposed to straight CWE: I feel your pain. However, there are some real and tangible benefits to mixing and matching, like the webway portals. They don't do much for us on our own, but when you add them to CWE Wraithguard with d-scythes, they're devastating. They can kill a wraithknight in cover in 1 volley.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Mon Apr 04 2016, 22:15

So...just for the sake of entertaining my wild idea...

Let's say I run two CADS.

Can I have Hq's from the other cad with troops of another? Say, My first detachment I have 4 raider wych sqauds...could I have it so a succubus in each?

Because...I'm wondering almost if I could make something work with a large amount of wyches, beast masters, and reavers with at being in there someplace...the points would probably be very tight however.

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"


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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Tue Apr 05 2016, 00:43

Reason to run DE over CWE: models are cooler, and people will probably enjoy playing against you more.

I love all the eldar. Cant go wrong buying models and any/all of your models can possibly be used in the same lists.

Fluff would be super easy as all eldar races are really selfish(always put themselves first) so it can always just be win win deal for each leader. (Or even the DE just showed up on their own when they heard of the battle and the farseer had a vision that if they worked together it would help the eldar win or the harlequins thought it would be funny to see what the DE would do)

On top of that you are bound to have at least one powerful codex out of the bunch (or at least I hope) moving on in the future.

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PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Tue Apr 05 2016, 02:28

So, just for funsies...

+++ Coven (1843pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Succubus [Archite glaive, Haywire Grenades, Splinter pistol, The Armour of Misery]

Succubus [Archite glaive, Haywire Grenades, Splinter pistol]

+ Troops +

Wyches [8x Wych]
··Hekatrix [Agoniser, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Pistol]
··Raider [Disintegrator cannon]

Wyches [8x Wych]
··Hekatrix [Agoniser, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Pistol]
··Raider [Disintegrator cannon]

Wyches [8x Wych]
··Hekatrix [Agoniser, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Pistol]
··Raider [Disintegrator cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

Razorwing Jetfighter [2 Dark Lances, 4x Monoscythe Missile, Twin-linked Splinter Rifle]

Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance]

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Succubus [Archite glaive, Splinter pistol]

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [5x Kabalite Warrior]
··Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors [5x Kabalite Warrior]
··Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers [Cluster caltrops, 2x Reaver]
··Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
····Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Second CAD is realspace Raiders formation, I believe that's the name.

Someone wanna let me know what they think on that?

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" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
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Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Tue Apr 05 2016, 03:28

Looks like it would be fun to play, but not competitive since you don't have anything to hurt vehicles. If only they hadn't taken wyches haywire grenades away... Sad

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Korazell
Sybarite
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Posts : 354
Join date : 2013-03-08

PostSubject: Re: Painting pretty pictures with pain.   Tue Apr 05 2016, 03:31

I have haywire grenades and reavers with blasters? >>;

The idea is that the three wych sqauds have two haywires a piece, plus alot of blasters....and a Ravager with a jet? I have lots of stuff that hurts vehicles.

I don't really see how I don't have anything to hurt vehicles?

o-o;

_________________
" Your suffering will be legendary. It will make the dead, long forgotten in our dear Commorragh, rattle in their graves as your agony touches them even from the beyond. I will record each scream, each gurgle, each cry and it will be my sweetest lullaby. The tears you spill will be collected and I will savor them like fine drink for years to come. The blood you spill will be used to feed my house-plants, and your flesh I will feed to the Razorwing flocks. Your bones I will keep and fashion into my clothes like a medal awarded for reaching the highest plateau of torture. You will never steal my sandwych again!"
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