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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 13:34

Easy question:
How many Venom do you use or would you be using for 1500 points? I own 5 but maybe I should get a couple new ones.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 13:37

I think the most I ever use is four or five.
At 1500/1800pts, I would look to only four or five small units, either specialist or a good batch of Warrior units. I I added any units after that, I would use Raiders instead. I think the number of Splinter Cannons offered by four Venoms is enouh, and adding some decent weapons from a Raide ris a better option.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 13:39

I have 6 Venoms and I tend to use as many of those as I can fit into the points allowed. At 1500 I think I would be aiming for at least 4 and possibly 5 or even 6.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 13:55

Ah. Maybe I do own enough..
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 15:31

The 1850 point list I am using has 9 venoms and 12 raiders.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 15:37

@Skulnbonz wrote:
The 1850 point list I am using has 9 venoms and 12 raiders.

And not much else! That's two thirds of your points just on vehicles! You should paint banners for them saying "If I was a Space Marine, I'd be free!"

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 17:58

At 1500 I would be looking for 6-8 venoms plus ravagers - but that's just me

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 18:44

With three Ravagers? That's quite a big % of your points.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 21:18

I must be weird, I only own three venoms and only field the third venom in games over 1500pts......
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Wed Mar 30 2016, 21:23

@der-al wrote:
I must be weird, I only own three venoms and only field the third venom in games over 1500pts......

Freak!! Burn him!!!

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 00:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@der-al wrote:
I must be weird, I only own three venoms and only field the third venom in games over 1500pts......

Freak!! Burn him!!!

Not enough pain is gathered without proper public humiliation. Please, fellow archon, explain us your strategy.

Seriously, der-al, what is you build? Razz
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 01:26

I also only have 2.  I want 4 to round out my collection but I also would not use more than 2 sub 1500 (not because it isnt good, it is.)  I just dont run venom spam and prefer raiders in low point games.

I think venoms shine in games where you are more restricted with what formations you take.

Between all the formations I want to run I barely have room for anything other than the minimum for my CAD to stay DE primary.  Extra venoms become quite the luxury.

Statistically I think the sweet spot is like 5-7 though.

I have been hearing rumors that raiders are going to be free (points wise) in the new codex but man I have no idea if any of these rumors hold any weight.  I am a little hesitant to go and triple the size of my venom collection just in case raiders are the future. (again, completely unconfirmed  I only heard this stuff from people in my local club I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY PROOF) lol dont want to get anyone's hopes up...
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 01:33

I have to admit when you use coven-based army, venom loss a lot of attractiveness. What formation do you use? The 2 venom suggest a scalpel squadron. What are the other ones?
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 02:11

Adding another scalpel squadron? Three scalpel squadrons? It's the only formation that uses Venoms, and the Wracks are expensive tax.

Coven armies don't even benefit from one of the scalpel squadron's biggest strength, being null deployment.

Some would argue that a single pair of raiders (for Grotesquerie) are the only transports you'd need for Covens armies.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 02:32

Like @hydranixx said Covens are geared for close combat and nulldeploying means your opponent gets 3 free turns of shooting.

Its weird it feels like people who had large DE collections prior to 7th had the venoms but many of us that started in 7th seem to lean more towards covens having only the minimum venoms.

@dumpeal I use the two I have to finish off the DE CAD.  Bone dry kabalite groups.  105 points for them, the venom and the extra cannon.  Not bad for a unit that can hold two objectives, boost for line breaker, and still be a decent sacrifice for my other units.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 03:06

@WhysoSully wrote:
Its weird it feels like people who had large DE collections prior to 7th had the venoms but many of us that started in 7th seem to lean more towards covens having only the minimum venoms.

To be fair to the thread purpose, being Venom MSU, the shift to 7th results in easier access to more venoms than we had prior to 7th anyway:

CAD - 6 Venoms* at 480 points**.
RSR - 9 Venoms* at 675 points**.

* - All venoms assumed to have dual splinter cannons.
** - Including tax of 1 Lhamean and 2x5 Kabalite Warriors.

So even though Coven lists have grown popular, the ability to pay only 480 points for 6 mobile, 12 shot platforms with some infantry on board, is why many players still adopt the MSU Venom build.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 03:53

To be fair I never said it was harder to take them or that people didnt.

Its just my observation.

I watched a lot of venom spam battle reports. Didnt look like my style and the models from the covens caught my eye immediatly.

From what I gathered people usually run about 6+ but most of them from troops. (tabletop tactics) loves to run lots of venoms on youtube.

Is there something other than playing the odds with # of dice that leads people to playing so many venoms? I dont even like FA venoms. Feels like a waste without OBSEC but I guess that argument will be for another day.

In my opinion if the first 4-6 venoms couldnt do what you needed them too, the next 2-4 arent going to help. Feels like you are giving away a lot of those 'do xxx to xxx amount of units' objectives.


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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 06:19

Dark eldar work by playing the law of averages...

Splinter weapons hit on 3+, wound on 4+ against anything with a T value (just about!)
Dark light weapons hit on 3+, glance on 4+ minimum against anything with an AV value (again just about!)

See a pattern? Wink

By understanding this and working on the amount of kills you need per turn you can work out the most efficient way of getting the guns you need.

A double canon venom will get on average 4 wounds per turn. Extrapolate that out say 8 venoms and 32 wounds - or a dead unit of 3+ saves. Against 4+ armour or cover its even better. Dark light works the same.

The minimum venoms I would ever take is 5 at 1500. With 5 warriors with a blaster in each that's 600 points and gives 10 Obsec units. At 25-36" I get on average 20 wounds per turn. At 18-24" I now get 27 wounds on average. At 13-18" I get 27 splinter and around 2 lance wounds or hull points. At 12" or less I get 34 splinter wounds and the 2 lance wounds/HP.

Its mobile, efficient infantry killing and can be effective from turn 1. It doubles efficiency as it closes with the enemy but is still effective out side of the range of common light weapons that kill venoms.

I swear by at least 5 (but more commonly 7 or more) in my lists. 5 as above plus 3 triple lance ravagers is less than 1000 points - and puts 8 hulls on the table from the get go. A single model court in a venom for the HQ brings it to about 1050. At 1500 I can still add a dark artisan and go back to the CAD for reavers or scourges.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 13:14

I field four at 1750, but ideally I'd like six. Four are usually enough, but not always, and I'd like something smaller than a Raider for my HQ really. I'd even be tempted to drop the blasters from the warriors riding in the existing ones to fit the last one in, they never, ever do anything for me anyway...

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 13:38

How exactly are you guys finding hiding places for all these venoms? I play on a field that generally has decent BLOS terrain, but that still means you only really have 3 places to go. 2 (in each corner of the table), and maybe a large BLOS building in the middle. After the enemy pushes up down the middle, there isnt really much space to maneuver.

Do you guys just accept that your loosing a minimum of 2 venoms each turn?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 14:58

It seems to me, that you guys aren´t using enough terrain. I think, the more terrain, the better.

I bit cover is enough to get a save though.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Thu Mar 31 2016, 23:36

@Dumpeal FYI my two venom 1500pt list is:

Deldar CAD

Succubus (archite glaive)

5 warriors venom dual cannons

5 warriors venom dual cannons

6 reavers (2 cluster caltrops)

6 reavers (2 cluster caltrops)

2 talos each with HWB

2 talos each with HWB

Grotesquerie formation:

3 grots, raider, night shield

3 grots, raider, night shield

Haemonculus (no upgrades)

I know, I know "if you're running 4 talos have you thought about corpsetheif claw"

yes i have, and no i prefer the flexability of two units of 2 talos, it seams to allow them to do more work
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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Fri Apr 01 2016, 02:00

@fisheyes wrote:
How exactly are you guys finding hiding places for all these venoms?

The short answer is, we don't find hiding places.

Bunch them all up in one area of the board and use each other for cover. If there's nearby terrain that's a bonus.

The beauty with Venoms is that they each have 5++ saves at worst and only cost 65pts.

@fisheyes wrote:
Do you guys just accept that your loosing a minimum of 2 venoms each turn?

Yes. Essentially the idea is that some will die, so we need many. That's the concept of spam.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Fri Apr 01 2016, 03:06

I agree that terrain might be an issue - in my experience (regardless of players and armies) the minimum you want is a quarter of the table covered in terrain but ideally a third of the table. You want 4-6 LoS blockers as well as part of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom MSU    Fri Apr 01 2016, 07:49

Personally I run 5 at 1500 with 3 Raiders but I've just ordered another 2.

I normally keep them together unless my opponent has battle cannons of deep strike Flamers, ideally they're bunched up do the shooting then one of the troop Raiders (or a ravager that jinked the turn before) boosts in front of them to give everyone a cover save.

2 different lists but my painted version atm is:

Court of the Archon // 3 sslyth 2 Medusae in a request with night shields
Archon with SF, AG, HW, armour of misery and webway portal with dedicated venom (joins court)

4 x venom with 5 kabalites // blaster and HW sybarite
2x Raiders with 5 kabalites // blaster and HW sybarite

Razorwing with DC
Razorwing with DL

Razorwing and court probably aren't the most competitive but I like them, so I use them. More competitive list has the 3 ravagers and droid the venom, a unit of kabalites and the razorwings

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