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 My disgust for the "Bomber"

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 22 2016, 10:26

I got a Bomber (for 1/2 the cost new in box) I never wanted one for the current set of rules.

Everyone at my local (20ish people) ask why its so Bad.... this is how I explained it to them.

Bomber W/ (Cheapest Missiles) Compare to Storm Raven

Bomber
Same Cost
Av10
Missiles Large Blast (only)
1 used Bomb
2 S9 Lances
Night Vision (almost never gets to use)
Supersonic (No point in it honestly)

Storm Raven
Av12 (all sides)
Assault Vehicle
Transport 12 + Dreadnought
TL- Assault Can
TL-Melta/Heavy Bolter (free)
4 Missiles (not blasts)
Ceramite Plating (so anti Melta)
Power of the Machine Spirit (Able to shoot 2 targets and still able to Jink with 1 Full BS gun)
Can Hover


The Bomber is the same cost for... less armor, no Jink+Full BS, no transport, Missiles that can NOT Fire of other Fliers and can NOT Hover.

Another thing about the Bomber is EVERYTHING S4 can hurt it, that means Bolters can kill it, so you have to Jink all the time or place it in spots that will hurt you later next turn to avoid not getting shot at by Fire Warriors, Marines etc...

If the Bomber had options for Free Haywire Missiles (not Blasts) then I "might" take it at that point.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 22 2016, 10:53

Yeah, they're not great. I've had good results but I'd have had the same results for cheaper with an allied Leman Russ or something similar - and more than once per game.

I think it'd be cool if they were given Shrouded, so they had the same 2+ Jink that Nightwings do. Maybe some special rule that lets them snapfire the bomb normally and be BS2 or BS3 when snapfiring their main guns. Vector Dancer too. Then they could be usable.
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 22 2016, 11:21

Maybe just make the bomb a D weapon with +1 or even +2 on the Destroyer table.

That would be awesome! It would give it a real purpose, too!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 22 2016, 14:25

@CptMetal wrote:
Maybe just make the bomb a D weapon with +1 or even +2 on the Destroyer table.

That would be awesome! It would give it a real purpose, too!

Yes it should be a D weapon honestly lol.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 22 2016, 18:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Maybe just make the bomb a D weapon with +1 or even +2 on the Destroyer table.

That would be awesome! It would give it a real purpose, too!

Yes it should be a D weapon honestly lol.


Considering how the lore describes it and the very different attitude to codex writing since the Dark Eldar codex, I expect it will be.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Mar 23 2016, 00:17

The thing that annoys me most is the complete and utter lack of special rules. The description for the unit included in the codex is almost ENTIRELY about it's stealth, quietness and efficiency, and there's literally not a single rule that helps if with any of these.

In it's current form, I believe the most popular builds are taking it without any upgrades, aiming to throw it's bomb as it comes in and then trying its best to shoot armoured target. The cost incurred by adding missiles takes an already exorbitant price tag even higher, especially when the Razorwing already comes cheaper with missiles for free and is in the Fast Attack slot instead of the Heavy Support slot.

@CptMetal wrote:
Maybe just make the bomb a D weapon with +1 or even +2 on the Destroyer table.

This would be one possible step in the right direction, but there'd still be no significant reason to take this unit for it's D weapon when WWP Wraightguard with D Flamers exists.

@MHaruspex wrote:
I think it'd be cool if they were given Shrouded, so they had the same 2+ Jink that Nightwings do. Maybe some special rule that lets them snapfire the bomb normally and be BS2 or BS3 when snapfiring their main guns. Vector Dancer too. Then they could be usable.

I think these are good suggestions, but perhaps a different approach could create a top notch flier that shouldn't have to be jinking in the first place due to the incredibly quiet and stealthy nature that the fluff describes.

What I'd do:

Immunity to intercept fire.
Immunity to all ground weapons without skyfire.
5++ Flickerfield save versus all ground weapons with skyfire, and a 3+ cover save if you jink.
Maybe Strafing Run and/or Ignores Cover of some sort.
No Vector Dancer, because it is designed to be a bomber first and foremost.

I'd even go so far as to consider giving it some additional weakness against enemy fliers. (bombers are meant to be weakest against enemy air harassment). Maybe it could receive -1 to it's Jink cover save against Air targets, or their flier could count one weapon as master crafted when they shoot at the Bomber.

Having a definite weakness against air units and no Vector Dancer would have it fit in as truly "being a bomber", and at the same time would allow us to buff it with the above rules without raising it's price.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Mar 23 2016, 08:08

I'm not sure there's anything you could do to it that would warrant raising its price and as for making it weaker against other fliers, it's AV10 with no form of save other than jink (which effectively negates all of its firepower). How much weaker do you want it?

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Mar 23 2016, 08:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure there's anything you could do to it that would warrant raising its price and as for making it weaker against other fliers, it's AV10 with no form of save other than jink (which effectively negates all of its firepower). How much weaker do you want it?

The problem is its over costed by at least 60pts, both fliers are over costed, with, rules that never work on them, no real AT/AA AV10 all around with no reliable saves or upgrades.

When I use AA with DE I just ally in Eldar Fliers. The only thing that will make DE fliers good if if they are cheap enough to spam 4-6 of them.

Take Missiles away from Razorwing make them Point upgrades like the Bomber, make the Razor Wing 90-100pts and the Bomber 100-110 points.

And even at that, people still might not play them, and it still not good enough to win tournaments with.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 29 2016, 15:08

I agree with amishprn86. Missiles on the bomber cost 40 pts, so if we make it an upgrade the base razorwing should be about 100 pts. Still not great, but with vector dancer or some other upgrade its bearable.

The bomber either needs S:D weapons or at the least a point reduction. 160 for two lances and a single large blast is clown shoes.
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Mar 29 2016, 21:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure there's anything you could do to it that would warrant raising its price and as for making it weaker against other fliers, it's AV10 with no form of save other than jink (which effectively negates all of its firepower). How much weaker do you want it?

I believe defined weaknesses are integral to the Dark Eldar as we have to play around them. Perhaps you're right though, that it is already flimsy enough to air when it's sitting pretty on armour 10.

It's probably best to price it somewhere around 130-150pts, with optional missiles, and add some of those extra rules to it that help it do it's actual job. I'd happily pay for it if it did include some form of the evasion that the fluff so adamantly refers to.

Do you really want vector dancer on a bomber? It has engines facing backwards. In my eyes it makes way more sense to give it much scarier guns, strafing run and some means to not die instantly to bolters.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Fri Apr 01 2016, 20:14

@hydranixx wrote:
I believe defined weaknesses are integral to the Dark Eldar as we have to play around them.

Most of our weaknesses are due to oversights, not deliberate design. Dark Eldar were supposed to be the army that can zip around the table, strike from anywhere they want, kill tough enemies with nasty tricks rather than raw firepower, and relies on cover instead of armor saves for defense. Not an army of expensive glass pistols that also happen to fire glass bullets.
If our trick weapons were as deadly as intended, some time had been spent to balance cost/efficiency compared to other armies instead of just 5th ed. Dark Eldar, and Ignores Cover wasn't slappen on so many weapons as a token upgrade, it would be a whole different situation.
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Sat Apr 02 2016, 07:23

This is a good thread. All points so far are spot on. I made my own when the last dex came out at the end of 5th. The army then was amazing. When the new dex came out i was really disheartened when the av dropped to 10 all the way and points are to high. I still field mine but no missiles. When taking the real space raiders, I think a turn 1 entrance for our flyers would be a step in the right direction for special rules. Getting the 5+ invul back for the bomber would help. Vector dancer for Razorwings is a must. As stated earlier, the dex was rushed to sell new models but suffered from lack of rules or conflicts with the brb and losing special characters and their abilities Really hurt.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Mon Apr 04 2016, 07:35

SOmetimes it`s work great for me. Most of the time...
But not always...
Armor 10 is a huge problem for such a expencive unit with pretty low options.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Apr 05 2016, 12:38

Av10 means basic weapons can skill it, with no real way to spot it other than Jink (and that makes it completely useless then) its just a waste for me to even bring into any list.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Apr 05 2016, 12:42

It looks rad though Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Apr 05 2016, 12:43

@Marrath wrote:
It looks rad though Very Happy

That it does, that it does.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Tue Apr 05 2016, 23:53

Having AV 10 and only one bomb for free makes me disinterested. Though the void lances seem solid.
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Apr 06 2016, 01:17

Yeah, if it were perhaps 11/11/10 with two bombs it would be it a little more appealing.

Even then though, you'd probably need to add a special rule or shave 30pts off the cost for people to want to buy it.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Sun Apr 10 2016, 21:54

It has its uses. Nothing that cant be done by something else (and arguably better in some cases) and its no tournie winner. But its visually flavourful and good at anti infantry if you load it up with missiles. It just seems like its suffering from the codex seeming to be written for a previous rules set, and not edited much for its release. I get the feeling the DE codex is meant for 6th or even 5th ed, and it sat in a drawer until 7th.

But I have used it to great effect at taking out my brothers infantry heavy necron army. I mean those things dont die, but fly a voidraven with void missiles and half his army goes away. Its OLD SCHOOL DE though. You fly it in, you fire once, you either get it out of there to never return or its dead, Jim.

Im not gunna pretend I am any good at warhammer. But at an amateur level, its perfectly fine. It also looks bad ass...
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Mon Apr 11 2016, 03:33

I know we are talking about the bomber and dont want to change the subject, but man I would actually rather just play with the old codex personally.

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Mon Apr 11 2016, 08:18

I agree. I loved the old Codex, the lore, the units, everything. Sure, we were a little weak, and we needed updating (I mean it was a second edition codex that got a slight rules update for 4th edition and didnt change for 19 years) but we had so much style.

Wyches were cool and effective, incubi were nasty little buggers that could hand to hand a TANK, the Talos had that cool gun which could hit an entire front line, mandrakes were useful in specific situations, the ravagers had both an anti armor and an anti infantry option and both were fantastic, we got WARGEAR (I think my archon had almost as many points as the entire rest of my army).

Sure, we got a bunch of new things, but so many of them are "unplayable" beyond a basic level. Wyches, revers, incubi, sabalites, the aircraft. like I said before, the concepts of each seem perfect for 5th ed, but its like they forgot to run through and update before publishing for 7th.

ANd they screwed up the lore. Sure, each codex retcons a few things. But we are talking MAJOR changes to the CORE DE lore. Where did the war between the wyches and the kabalites come from? Where did the Incubi go to? Why are we ok with the Eldar now? Who the hell are these trueborn guys? When did we stop taking drugs?
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Sat Apr 16 2016, 21:34

@albions-angel wrote:
ANd they screwed up the lore. Sure, each codex retcons a few things. But we are talking MAJOR changes to the CORE DE lore. Where did the war between the wyches and the kabalites come from? Where did the Incubi go to? Why are we ok with the Eldar now? Who the hell are these trueborn guys? When did we stop taking drugs?

Malys and Vect are at war, not Wyches and Kabalites.
Incubi are still a cult of mercenary swordsmen.
Trueborn existed in the 5th edition codex as well: They are naturally born Dark Eldar who consider themselves nobility, above the masses of vat-grown peasants.
Non-Wych units can't take combat drugs anymore because the author thought they should be a Wych-exclusive thing.
The fluff reason for why Eldar and Dark Eldar get along is that the Harlequins are apparently really good at diplomacy, and that letting others fight and die in their place has always been the Craftworlders' prefered strategy. The gameplay reason is so that Craftworld units can use our transports and we can get the firepower our army should have in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Sun Apr 17 2016, 05:25

Oh boy do i agree. Actually my incubi have wasted so many marines, chaos, necrons, etc. That they are always in my lists. Reavers do their job for me always too. But choosing warriors over my wyches has put me out sense the new dex.

But back to the subject, the bomber really needs to have its old rules back as well as a point cost decrease to fit into 7th. But I still field mine for flavor. So far every new dex has had good balanced things taken away I think in an attempt at balance but failed. They want to sell models but keep smacking theirselves with rules that make serious players not buy but cool enough for collectors to want. My 2 cent.....

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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Apr 27 2016, 21:14


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PostSubject: Re: My disgust for the "Bomber"   Wed Apr 27 2016, 22:54

Maybe. Some people predict some BS about fighters having to snapfire vs ground targets, making fighters completely useless except vs other air. So they'll basically be worthless at that point.

I certainly hope they don't go all hamfist like that, especially if they name the crimson hunter a fighter. Can you imagine a crimson hunter that can't attack ground targets?

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