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 The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:02

I was wondering if the "Look our sir" rule would work with The Dark Artisan formation.


Dark Artisan formation:

1 Heamonculus

-Nightmare doll
The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. Furthermore, the Nightmare Doll automatically
negates the first unsaved Wound with the Instant Death special rule that the bearer suffers, though as soon as it does so, the
Nightmare Doll will immediately cease to work for the rest of the battle.


Master artisan trait reroll fnp rolls of 1

1 Talos

1 cronos

Spirit probe add +1 to fnp roll


My question is that if I get shot and I have the heamonculus out front, can I roll his 3+ FNP (while rerolling 1's) and if failed then do a "look out sir" with the talos and (if passed) then roll a 4+ FNP (while rerolling 1's) (cant look out sir after taking FNP save)

Also how would the insta death rule apply with "look out sir", for instance a s 8 attack on my toughness 4 heamonculus (attack would be against the most common toughness in the unit when rolling to wound) then "look out sir" (if passed) onto the talos, would it still be instant death since the talos has a toughness of 5? And would I have the option to do this before letting the Nightmare doll go off? (this does in deed work.)
(after rolling to wound against the most common toughness, once you allocate, then ID is determined, only if forced to allocate a wound that would become ID on the heamonculus would you Look out sir! if you wanted to save the NMD) I believe this is now correct?

One more question, is it possible to take a webway portal and deepstrike this formation? (yes!)

Questions answered. thanks guys.


Last edited by WhysoSully on Wed Mar 16 2016, 19:19; edited 5 times in total
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PriorofDeath
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:12

Look out sir is applied after the wounds are applied to the wound pool, but before they are applied to a model and saves are taken. You don't get to roll saves and then look out sir them away, so no.

Secondly, master artisan applies only to talos/cronos models within 12in of your warlord so no re-rolling of ones for your haemonculus.

Atleast this is my understanding

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:19

look out sir is after a wound is allocated to a character, but I see what you mean.  it would be in between allocation and saves, not after saves.  (it seemed a little too good to be true hence my post lol)  youre right about the master artisan rule, adjusted the post.

How about deepstriking this with a webway?
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PriorofDeath
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:26

Glad you mopped up my slop there. It's a bit late for me.

Deep strike as you wish. 100% legal.

If you successfully LOS a S8 shot onto the talos it is not longer an instant death because S8 is not greater than or equal to Tx2. Since the wound was not applied to the haemonculus the nightmare doll will still function as normal until the haemonculus suffers a wound from an instant death shot

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Last edited by PriorofDeath on Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:30; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Second question answer)
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 04:59

Great, thanks.

So I am guessing its best to "look out sir" only instant death shots unless im ready to drop the NMD.

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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 11:14

Well if I remember, didn't look the rule up. When you have a mix toughness unit you go with the toughness that is most of. In a unit of 3 where one is T 4 and 2 is T 7 the unit toughness is 7 so I am not sure you can be instant killed. But the order of the saves, wounds and look out sir would be. wounds from the str. 8 attacks on a 3+, then any saves properly cover against str 8 attacks, then look out on a 2+ and then feel no pain " save".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 11:57

@killedbydeath wrote:
Well if I remember, didn't look the rule up. When you have a mix toughness unit you go with the toughness that is most of. In a unit of 3 where one is T 4 and 2 is T 7 the unit toughness is 7 so I am not sure you can be instant killed. But the order of the saves, wounds and look out sir would be. wounds from the str. 8 attacks on a 3+, then any saves properly cover against str 8 attacks, then look out on a 2+ and then feel no pain " save".

Majority Toughness is used to determine the score needed to wound but is not taken into account when determining whether ID applies. That is determined only on the Toughness of the model that the wound is allocated to. So if a Krak Missile (S8) is fired at the Dark Artisan, it rolls to wound vs T7 (the majority) but if the wound was taken by the Haemonculus (T4) it would still be Instant Death to him.

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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 11:58

@killedbydeath wrote:
Well if I remember, didn't look the rule up. When you have a mix toughness unit you go with the toughness that is most of. In a unit of 3 where one is T 4 and 2 is T 7 the unit toughness is 7 so I am not sure you can be instant killed.
Majority toughness is used to determine what die roll is needed to wound, but if it does wound and is allocated to the Haemonculus, it uses the Haemonculus' toughness to determine ID.

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Wed Mar 16 2016, 19:09

Ah that is good to know.

So my opponent would target the unit and roll against the higher toughness then I would have the choice of which model takes the wound(granted they are an option).

Only if the heamonculus is targeted(precision?) or the only option for allocation would I be risking ID (vs 3T) and even then, I could still Look out sir! or let the doll pop.

Not bad, lookin forward to using this formation. Interested to see the how well 4+ fnp/rerolling 1's will turn out with the talos/cronos. Hoping they last long enough for the IWND/EW. Still debating with myself the merits of Deep strikin them in a pure DE list.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Thu Mar 17 2016, 00:43

@WhysoSully wrote:
So my opponent would target the unit and roll against the higher toughness then I would have the choice of which model takes the wound(granted they are an option).

You'll always be toughness 7, correct, but the shot is resolved against the nearest model from the shooter at all times, except in the case of barrage (nearest to the centre of blast), precision shots (opponent picks) or Look out Sir (you pick).

@WhysoSully wrote:
Not bad, lookin forward to using this formation.  Interested to see the how well 4+ fnp/rerolling 1's will turn out with the talos/cronos.  Hoping they last long enough for the IWND/EW.  Still debating with myself the merits of Deep strikin them in a pure DE list.

Don't be concerned with that. They'll almost never die before getting those rules. One foot in cover? Enjoy a minimum of 5+ cover followed by FNP. They don't die fast to anything except Grav.

The debate with a Dark Artisan is usually based on whether they actually do enough before the game ends. If they footslog, they're really slow and avoidable, and if you deep strike with a WWP they may be MIA for half the game before appearing.

I'd still pick a WWP every time, though without allied Autarch it's a risky move. They do still hit relatively hard, they're full of buffs, have access to decent shooting (3 templates in one unit?) and they're accurate.

Best of luck!

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PriorofDeath
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Thu Mar 17 2016, 03:49

As far as I understand only the haemy can benefit from IWND/EW from PfP as the talos and chronos do not have that special rule sadly, though they are tough SOB's. (Only time I lost the unit was running them through open turrain against a paskutioner) There are pros as cons to DS this unit, I think it comes down to preference and if you can be kited.

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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Artisan Formation and the "Look out sir" rule.    Thu Mar 17 2016, 08:22

Also remember that the coven gives eternal warrior to the heamonculus turn 5 with the plus 1 from him self.
The turn 4 zealot is also good to remember. Hatred to the unit
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