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 1850p for small local tournament

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Bhaal
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PostSubject: 1850p for small local tournament   Wed Feb 17 2016, 20:50

I'm putting together a list for a small local tournament. I'm a rather new player and I could use some advice. Here's what I got so far.


[Realspace Raiders Detachment (1520pts)]

[HQ]

Archon (160pts) WL
Shadow field, The Archangel of Pain, Webway portal

Haemonculus (155pts)
Crucible of malediction, Gnarlskin, Liquifier Gun, The Armour of Misery, Webway portal

[Troops]

Kabalite Warriors(105pts)
5 Warriors + Venom, Splinter Cannon x2

Kabalite Warriors(105pts)
5 Warriors + Venom, Splinter Cannon x2

Kabalite Warriors(105pts)
9 Warriors + Raider (Splinter Racks, Dark Lance)

[Elite]

Incubi (260pts)
9 Incubi + Raider (Dark Lance, Night Shield, Chain-snares)

[Fast Attack]

Scourges (120pts)
5 Scourges (4 Haywire blaster)

Scourges (120pts)
5 Scourges (4 Haywire blaster)

Scourges (120pts)
5 Scourges (4 Haywire blaster)

Razorwing Jetfighter (165pts)
Dark Lances, 4x Monoscythe Missile, Nightshield, Splinter Cannon

Reavers (63pts)
3 Reavers (Cluster caltrops)


[Formation: Scalpel Squadron(330pts)]

Wracks (165pts)
3 Wracks, 1 Wrack (Ossefactor), Acothyst (Hexrifle, Liquifier Gun)

Wracks (165pts)
3 Wracks, 1 Wrack (Ossefactor), Acothyst (Hexrifle, Liquifier Gun)


My idea is to keep the 2 Raiders + units with my two HQ in reserve and drop them at a good place and release hell. Scalpel Squadron for an easy snipe and some VP to start with. The rest is good mobility in hopes of taking objectives while picking off the enemy at a reasonable distance.


As I said, could use some feedback on my list. I know there's a chance I will go up against one or more of the following: Necrons, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Khorne Daemonkin and Tyranids. I don't know much about their preferences in list building but I know the necron player will be playing Retribution Phalanx and Eldar player will be bringing a bit of bikes. It's also reasonable to say I will see a fair bit of flamers as well as some vehicles.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Thu Feb 18 2016, 00:31

The list appears to be a deep striking one, which is an awesome strategy. The inclusion of the the Scalpel Squadron in particular gives you the option for a complete null deployment option, so it's fantastic if you're going second.

However, in my opinion, you're spending far too much on individual units. Unless you're limited by models you own, and stretching to meet the points cost, there's changes to consider. Here's my synopsis:

Archon and Haemonculus
In your HQ slots, your Archon probably wants to get an Agoniser, so he can actually participate in fights. He might get his Archangel kills, as you don't seem to have many Space Marine players in your tournament. Seeing that there's Grey Knights, Nids and Eldar though, I would probably drop it for the Helmet of Spite. The Haemonculus also seems good, given the prevalence of Psykers in the tournament. Perhaps drop Liquifier for a Scissorhand, so that he too can threaten things in combat.

Good, but slight adjustments can be made depending on how many Psykers your opponents are packing.

Kabalites
The Kabalite Warriors are good. I think you've incorrectly priced the Raider Warrior unit though, you should double check that. I'd consider dropping this unit entirely, as both the Sslyth and Medusae are stronger for your alpha strike, WWP purposes - Sslyth shoot only a little less poison, but are several times more tough to kill, especially if your Raider explodes, while Medusae are basically the Liquifier guns you want to include, but actually worth it because they're Strength 4 and automatically AP3. A mix of these two units is best, as they can still claim majority Toughness 5 and hurt anything with a wound value in the game. You can find points for these guys by changing your next option...

Check points cost, consider Court of the Archon if you have models/happy to convert.

Incubi
Your Incubi are already an incredibly ballsy unit to include, and you've sized them at 9 models and an HQ, so they better have wheelbarrows for them to carry their titanium balls into battle. They can and will be targetted with everything your opponent has the turn in which they arrive, and they also can and will die, because they're only T3. Give them a Klaivex at minimum to tank challenges for your attached HQ.

On the flip side, I think they will work if you can get board control, and drop them as your entire army flies/deepstrikes into position nearby, daring your opponent to ignore your shooting units while the Incubi take the fire. I think they're still kinda squishy for this purpose, and either Grotesques or Sslyth will perform a similar task with far better odds of surviving. Consider playing a smaller unit of Incubi deepstriking/flat outing in their own Raider or Venom without a WWP. If they survive, they can eat small elite units, and if not, at least they haven't cost you over 400 points including the HQ that WWP'd them into place.

Play a smaller squad, multiple smaller squads, or replace them entirely with hardier combat units.

Scourges
You've put a lot of points into Scourges, which is fair enough as you lack long ranged lance support and you're deep striking much of what you play. The problem is that the Scourges themselves become dangerously close to useless against non-vehicle targets. Eldar bike spam, necrons, Tyranids will mostly laugh off their shooting. I'd cut a squad of them for more Reavers with upgrades, or give a squad blasters/heat lances instead of triple haywire.

Modify one squad loadout or drop one squad for Reavers.

Razorwing and Reavers
The Razorwing and Reaver squad are both good. The flier is a little costly, but I suppose that's to be expected. The jinking 3+ cover save is nice when you plan to fly off the board in your next turn anyway. I'd probably leave these exactly as they are, or if you snip off some points and are unsure where to put them, give a blaster to the Reavers.

Scalpel Squadron
The Scalpel Squadron is buying too many weapons that are of limited use. The Hexrifle is terrible for how much it costs. You're also likely to be scattering, so your little flamer will seldom hit, and even when they do, its far from reliable at St3 and D6 AP. Even Guardsmen could get their armour save, and you only wound them on 4's.

Keep them cheap: simply 5 Wracks, and a single Ossefactor if you're feeling indulgent.

Overall, there's a good theme going here, but you could make it far more lean and mean if you're ruthless with your cutting of surplus points spending

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Bhaal
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Thu Feb 18 2016, 16:00

Thank you so much for your input, you've given me a lot to think about. You're right about the Kabalites in Raider, it was a typo here and I have the correct point value on paper.

At this point I don't actually have Court models or Grotesques, however, your reasoning have convinced me to look into getting at least one of the two for my army before the tournament. I'm leaning towards the Court models in exchange for the Kabalites in the Raider with the Archon and then keep some Incubi with the Haemonculus in the other Raider, though reducing the amount of Incubi. Currently considering 5 Sslyths and 2 Medusae, is that a fair ratio? Do I need more of them overall?

This, as well as removing one of the Scourge squad and stripping down the Scalpel Squadron a little, gives me room to add up for a total of 3 Reaver squads instead of the one, also equip some blasters.

I'm not fully happy with the details yet, but I'll come back with a revised list once I am. In the meantime I'm happy to consider any additional critique and/or suggestions.

Again, thank you for the time and expertise you put into your reply!
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Fri Feb 19 2016, 01:02

@Bhaal wrote:
I'm leaning towards the Court models in exchange for the Kabalites in the Raider with the Archon

Brilliant choice! Because you're playing Realspace Raiders detachment (and not a CAD), the Kabalites really are tax. Lacking Objective Secured really limits their usefulness.

@Bhaal wrote:
and then keep some Incubi with the Haemonculus in the other Raider, though reducing the amount of Incubi.

This is not a bad move. He makes them get access to special rules a full turn earlier, and can tank a few hits. Be very careful with your charges though, because the Haemonculus does not have Fleet, and therefore the Incubi cannot benefit from it when he's attached to them.

@Bhaal wrote:
Currently considering 5 Sslyths and 2 Medusae, is that a fair ratio? Do I need more of them overall?

This is a good ratio, yeah. I normally play 4 Sslyth : 3Medusae, but I actually think yours is a better ratio in many situations. You'll hold onto toughness 5 majority for longer than my unit, have more poison, and have better combat prowess, and it only costs you a single template to achieve. I think I'm just stuck into 3 Medusae mode because I hate marines that much haha.

@Bhaal wrote:
Again, thank you for the time and expertise you put into your reply!

No worries, anytime bro.

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Bhaal
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Fri Feb 19 2016, 11:30

Revised army list

[Realspace Raiders Detachment (1589pts)]

[HQ]

Archon (185pts) WL
Agoniser, Shadow field, Splinter Pistol, The Helm of Spite, Webway portal

Haemonculus (150pts)
Crucible of malediction, Scissorhand, The Armour of Misery, Webway portal

Court of the Archon (250pts)
2 Medusae, 5 Sslyth, Raider (Dark Lance 5pts, Nightshield)

[Troops]

Kabalite Warriors(105pts)
5 Warriors + Venom, Splinter Cannon x2

Kabalite Warriors(105pts)
5 Warriors + Venom, Splinter Cannon x2

[Elite]

Incubi (180pts)
4 Incubi + Klaivex, Raider (Disintegrator cannon, Nightshield)

[Fast Attack]

Scourges (120pts)
5 Scourges (4 Haywire blaster)

Scourges (120pts)
5 Scourges (4 Haywire blaster)

Razorwing Jetfighter (165pts)
Dark Lances, 4x Monoscythe Missile, Nightshield, Splinter Cannon

Reavers (73pts)
3 Reavers (Cluster caltrops, 1x blaster)

Reavers (73pts)
3 Reavers (Cluster caltrops, 1x blaster)

Reavers (63pts)
3 Reavers (Cluster caltrops)


[Formation: Scalpel Squadron(260pts)]

Wracks (130pts)
5 Wracks (1x Ossefactor)

Wracks (130pts)
5 Wracks (1x Ossefactor)
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Bhaal
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Tue Apr 19 2016, 21:43

A quick update.

Thanks for the time in helping design my list.

The tournament was fun, however I ended at the bottom half.
Mostly due to inexperience and some poor strategical choices but it was an excellent learning tournament for me as a new player.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Wed Apr 20 2016, 05:41

Glad you enjoyed the tournament!

I'm sure you'll get better aquainted with the rules through experience. One thing I noticed about your most current list is the crucible of malediction. It CAN be really useful against a really limited number of lists, such as flying daemon lists where you don't really have much other anti-air and your opponent has a bunch of flying psyker MCs that you want to force a grounding check on.

But outside of these very specific circumstances, it will be an underwhelming item. If you're taking it as a failsafe for flying psyker MCs, you have my full endorsement! If you're expecting other things out of it, you may want to look elsewhere. Wink

Good luck with your next game, and let us know how you do!

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Wed Apr 20 2016, 20:16

I believe that the WWP is a relic, and you can only have 1 per detachment. May be worth looking into...
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Wed Apr 20 2016, 20:53

I am pretty sure its not a relic, at least not in the normal sense, as you can take wwp's on coven heamonculi which do not have access to DE relics and you can take both archangels and a wwp even on a normal DE heamonculi.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850p for small local tournament   Thu Apr 21 2016, 00:14

Yeah, WWPs are unlimited.

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