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 Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 02:09

I really want this unit to be up to standard, but I don't think they've been given enough options to really stand out from their Troops counterparts like the Trueborn do. It's their Khaine-given right to be a *****-*** assault unit! After all, each of them survived to be a Heka. Forum rules don't allow for points cost listing but that's okay, they're all exactly like in the Codex. Smile

Quote :
Hekatrix Bloodbrides
Composition: unchanged
Unit Type: unchanged
Wargear: unchanged
Special Rules: unchanged
Transport: unchanged
Character Options: unchanged

Options:

Any model may exchange her close combat weapon for:
- Venom Blade

For every three models in the squad, one may replace her close combat weapon with:
- Power Weapon
- Agoniser
(note that this is in addition to the Syren's options)

Up to two Bloodbrides may replace their splinter pistol with:
- Blast pistol
(note that this is in addition to the Syren's options)

Up to four Bloodbrides may replace their splinter pistol and close combat weapon for:
- Razorflails
- Hydra Gauntlets
- Shardnet and Impaler

The entire squad may be armed with:
- Haywire Grenades

I think these gals could give the Incubi a run for their money. Very Happy

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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 05:11

Could get expensive quick but damn could they knock a hole in things.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 06:11

I like it - why'd you change the setup behind Wych Weapons?

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 08:21

I wonder about that too, think it'd be preferable to rather have something like have wych weapons for every three models, and up to 3/4 models with power weapon/agoniser possibility. Still sounds good, and gives them a heck of a punch. Would like to use it.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 09:31

I like it, high points cost and high punch give them super elite weapon master feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 15:59

Thor665 wrote:
I like it - why'd you change the setup behind Wych Weapons?

The only reason I could see is he wanted to have 5 man super dread tie-uppers Razz

Think about it, 5 bloodbrides with haywires, 4 with shardnets... say hello dreadnaught and laugh Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 16:32

Maybe It should have wych weapons 1/per 3 models, agoniser/power weapon upto four. That 4 shardnets w/haywire build would be cheesy, not good with diy rule unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 16:53

abjectus wrote:
Maybe It should have wych weapons 1/per 3 models, agoniser/power weapon upto four. That 4 shardnets w/haywire build would be cheesy, not good with diy rule unit.
That's what I just said. Wink

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 17:02

If Trueborns can have 4 Blasters unconditionally I see no reason to deny Bloodbrides their special gear in equally large numbers: right now you can still have only max 1 Wych Weapon per Venom loadout, which is exactly the same allotment as regular Wyches. Imagine if Blasters were 1 per 3 on Trueborns; you'd be seeing a lot less of them!

Yes if these ******* manage to get up to a Dread it gets nasty. But you're fielding 6+Sv chicks at 20+pts a pop; the opponent should suffer for not prioritising them. Besides, there'd be a lot of other options that might take preference over this 'Dreadhunter' setup, which is pretty niche... Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 18:25

Saintspirit, I misread what you posted. I thought 3/4 meant 3 out of 4, allowing 10 wychs to have siren with agoniser, 6 bloodbrides with agoniser, and 3 with wych weapon. 3 to 4 is indeed exactly the same as my later comment.

Quote :
For every three models in the squad, one may replace her close combat weapon with:
- Power Weapon
- Agoniser
(note that this is in addition to the Syren's options)
Maybe add elecrocorrosive whip to this list (and/or to the sirens weapon options). People seem to prefer agonisers on everything that has option, but with 3 in large unit, the elecrocorrosive whip might actually be used.

Maybe allow 4 wych weapons, but only 1 per 3 models in unit may be duplicate, this would allow them there weapons while preventing any spammy cheese builds. A 10 Boodbride unit could still take 4 of the same, but small unit would need to take 2 or 3 types. Having a mix of weapons is probably more fluffy to.

At the moment I can only think of cheese from shardnets spam, but there could be other spam cheese. 4 shardnets and an archon w/ huskblade, clone field and soul trap could be nasty for tyranids, or many armies characters and monstrous creatures. Add haywire and it can hunt dreads too. In a 10 man unit the cost would be high enough it should be able to tear up all kinds of stuff. It would have to, being 500pt+ unit

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 19:47

Like it, but I think its little OP with 4`nizers, I know 20 a piece but thats can chew trough anything with T. But aditional 1-2 `nizers would be nice and not broken.

Having more PW/wips/Vblades is fair and square, and since they are gladiators I would see more wych weapons....and not for 10 pts....more like 3-4 pts for everyone in squad....9d6A Very Happy thats nice thing to trow at opponent.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Fri Sep 30 2011, 19:53

Please understand that this is not about cheese. It's about giving the Brides of Khaine the versatility and oomph they deserve. Consider the following:

- 3 Brides/Succubus, all with Blast Pistols, all but one with Agonisers coming from WWP (4-woman Death Star)
- a large, cheapish unit all with Venom Blades forcing a horrendous amount of saves on unlucky infantry (Hyper Wracks)

The current unit's only real worthy use is as Clonefield Archon bodyguard and they need to be at 9 to pull it off. That's just sad as hell.

Also, none of these suggestions are playtested in any way. The numbers I used were derived from the Trueborn unit's options. But if having 0-4 Shardnets (or any Wych Weapons) would be deemed too beardy, one might consider just leaving it at 0-3.

abjectus wrote:
Maybe add elecrocorrosive whip to this list (and/or to the sirens weapon options). People seem to prefer agonisers on everything that has option, but with 3 in large unit, the elecrocorrosive whip might actually be used.

Maybe allow 4 wych weapons, but only 1 per 3 models in unit may be duplicate, this would allow them there weapons while preventing any spammy cheese builds. A 10 Boodbride unit could still take 4 of the same, but small unit would need to take 2 or 3 types. Having a mix of weapons is probably more fluffy to.
I wouldn't mind the whip option, though I'd probably never see a use for it myself. But for the Wych Weapon suggestion, I wholeheartedly disagree. With these weapons, it's go big or go home, and besides I think the way you proposed it would make combat unnecessarily laborious and complicated.

GrenAcid wrote:
Having more PW/wips/Vblades is fair and square, and since they are gladiators I would see more wych weapons....and not for 10 pts....more like 3-4 pts for everyone in squad....9d6A Very Happy thats nice thing to trow at opponent.
Haha, dreamer! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sat Oct 01 2011, 06:47

Since there is one obvious way to cheese options, it would be kind of sad if someone exploited a houserule to do it. So, people shouldn't have to be told not to take all nets in small squad in a friendly game. I'm probably just use to playing role playing games with power-gamers, that have to be told not to do it in advance or they will.

The way I suggested above is probably over complicated, and unnecessarily confusing. Unless someone is trying to be cheesy, I think your original proposal would work fine. My suggestion is just redundant backup for common sense that prevents some perfectly good options.

I can never justify replacing the agoniser on succubus with electrocorrosive whip, but with siren with agoniser, I could take flavorful but less effective weapon for others and not miss extra agonisers mid-game.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sat Oct 01 2011, 08:25

Perhaps something that only allows you to take two of each wych weapon kind?

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sat Oct 01 2011, 13:20

abjectus wrote:
I'm probably just use to playing role playing games with power-gamers, that have to be told not to do it in advance or they will.
I have to admit I probably would. But that is an ancient creed; if taking one is good, taking more is better. Smile

Right now I'm merely at a loss as to why the Devs chose for the current template instead of one like I proposed. Maybe such a unit would, in reality, indeed be too scary - though I can hardly imagine so, pts costs being what they are. But they must have known beforehand that Bloodbrides as they are now look pretty bleak compared with both regular Wyches and their competition in the Elites slot. Oh, to have a peek inside their minds... call the Haemonculi! Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sat Oct 01 2011, 16:33

If you add the electo whips with Shardnets that would be insane. If you don't kill the guy out right with the power weapons of the electo whips they will be at half str and will have a very hard time wounding the brides back with less attacks from Shardnets.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sat Oct 01 2011, 19:57

Cailos, If there were 4 shard nets, they won't be attacking back anyway, so 1/2 str won't matter. The shardnet unit could charge a greater demon, c'tan, dread, brass scorpion, bio-titan, ect.. attack then when other player picks up dice say, no you don't get to do anything. Even if point value was high enough to balance, the other player would be annoyed and call unit cheesy. Thats why I thought since diy unit would only be used in fun game, people wouldn't use the most broken thing they could, unless they're like the old Dungeons and Dragon group I played with.

The only combo that makes broken is lots of shardnets in small unit. Big unit is more unwieldly and alot more points so not so bad even with lots of shardnets. Lots of hydra gauntlet, razor flail, agoniser, venom blades, elecrocorrossive whips (the effects don't stack, so having them in unit is not much diffrent the unit escorting succubus with one) may be nasty effective unit, but not cheesy. The shardnet unit could charge a greater demon, c'tan, dread, brass scorpion, bio-titan, ect.. attack then when other player picks up dice say, no you don't get to do anything. Even if point value was high enough to balance, the other player would be annoyed and call unit cheesy.

It may be enough to leave it to honor system for people not to do that, but simplest way to explicitly prevent it would be have wych weapons as in codex, then give option to take 3 hydra gauntlet or razorflails. So 5 bride unit could take 4 wych weapons if they wanted, but only 1 shardnet. This would allow for some interesting combos and effective units, but there point cost will also be large to match.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 02:24

@abjectus:

After putting it like that I have to agree that outright nullification is a bad thing. But it seems simpler to me to just restrict Wych Weapons to 0-3 altogether; that way its maximum won't exceed the real Bloodbrides' and not as likely to be considered broken (not to mention it's easier on the formatting).

I'm aware that this restriction still allows for things like 3 Shardnets/2 Agonisers, but remain convinced that the pts cost justifies the power.

Quote :
Even if point value was high enough to balance, the other player would be annoyed and call unit cheesy.

I get annoyed by lots of things. In fact, I get annoyed by just about anything that's handing my *** to me at any given time. Consequently, any whining my opponent does is simply reassuring me I made the right play. Why so much empathy? Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 04:45

Shardnets specifically can't reduce attacks below 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 05:22

Holy crap you're right! That's awesome! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 08:35

That makes that easier, extra shardnet cheese not so cheesy after seeing that line. Unit probably good as posted. 4 shardnets only help if model had 5 base attacks, or spread on multiple models, not so bad for expensive T3 unit. Not sure how I missed that line Rolling Eyes , I normally only use 1 shard net in 9 wych unit, so it's never been a issue in game. Come to think of it all my wych builds use 1 less then maximum wych weapons, no reason why I can remember. I'll have to rethink that.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 08:57

The big reason i think we got the blood brides we did rather then something like this is that they then do what incubi do... and then who would take incubi?

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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 10:48

I would still take incubi, they would be cheaper in points, a blood bride w/ agoniser is 33-35pts. I would us incubi vs assualt marines, scorpions... and use blood brides vs assault terminators, vanguard, banshees.... Or use blood brides in wych theme army list, and incubi in kabalite themed army list. I have 8-9 old metal incubi, converted plastic squad, a metal box set, and I'll probably get some finecast ones to compare with metal, so I intend to use them. So far the only elites I use are Incubi, and grotes. I used blaster born in one game and took a squad of wrack(as elite choice) in one game, but the only elite I've taken more then one of in list is 5 Incubi in venom. with this variant, I would probably take one of each for the extra flexibility. As they are now, I figured why take blood brides when I can take wychs as troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Sun Oct 02 2011, 14:31

Yeah I've been pretty much stuck on 2 Elites choices as well (Trueborn and Incubi) as well, I'd love for them to have some decent competition.

Massaen wrote:
The big reason i think we got the blood brides we did rather then something like this is that they then do what incubi do... and then who would take incubi?

I don't think it would be a problem. As said, Incubi remain the cheaper choice (for mass PW attacks, that is, Agonisers get expensive fast) whereas Bloodbrides would have more options. I'd be fine with that, and still love my Incubi. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Bloodbrides: a Trueborn-style overhaul   Mon Oct 03 2011, 15:57

I donts see why ultimate tarpit unit would be cheesy....TH/SS termis arent and they have those nasty 3++ so it shouldbe ok.

Besides it would be priceless to see opponents face when his assault squad in charge has 5A Very Happy
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And I still have room for incubi.

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