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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 02:48

Hey lads and ladies,

Most raiders have been delegated to flying Grotesques headfirst into things or providing taxi services for allied Fire Dragons. Admittedly they're pretty good at both.

Does anyone still use them for 'traditional' Kabalite Gunboats? How do people equip their Gunboats these days?

With Splinter Cannons being an awkward Salvo 4/6 range 36", are they worth including? They seem so expensive now, and if you're at 19"-24" range after moving it can't even contribute whereas normal rifles can.

The only wargear I'm sure is worth including is Splinter Racks. Is it worth buying any other upgrades? Normally we want to keep em as cheap as we can, so do you ever pay for things like: Syrabite, Blaster, Nightshields, Dark Lance, Shock Prow?

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 05:47

If I use gun boats I use them with ten dudes with rifles, Splinter racks and a night shield. If I'm against the right enemy I add a Sybarite with Phantasm launcher because I can hunt the same target with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 08:27

Same as CptMetal - I use ten normal guys, nightshields to make them a bit more survivable, splinter racks are a must and I usually add in a dark lance too since you can never have too many of those.


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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 08:39

The dark Lance in the dudes or on the Raider? The Raider is going to jink anyway so the Lance is a waste of points and the guys will count as moving and will shoot at Infantry and monsters anyway. So why bother?

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 09:35

Just hope you don't come across a flamer of any sort if you intend to fill boats with people.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 10:20

@CptMetal wrote:
The dark Lance in the dudes or on the Raider? The Raider is going to jink anyway so the Lance is a waste of points and the guys will count as moving and will shoot at Infantry and monsters anyway. So why bother?

On the raider. It's only 5pts and I don't need disintegrator fire cos I'm drowning people in poison shots instead. It works for me in my list, it may not work in everyone's.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 10:36

I never use them.

Even at optimum range, they just don't seem to do anything. And, I see an awful lot of units that I really don't want to be within 12" of (3+ Jink doesn't help against melee...).
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 11:38

@The Shredder wrote:
I never use them.

Even at optimum range, they just don't seem to do anything. And, I see an awful lot of units that I really don't want to be within 12" of (3+ Jink doesn't help against melee...).

I've rarely been disappointed, but then I do tend to take two of them and gang up on stuff, using venoms to keep other stuff pinned down.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 14:23

Wouldn't five dudes in a Raider with racks have a similar output? Granted the range is lower but they are much more survivable because they can jink and shoot. And one additional hull point and night shield for only 5 points more.

Only problem would be the range and flamers.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 14:41

@CptMetal wrote:
Wouldn't five dudes in a Raider with racks have a similar output? Granted the range is lower but they are much more survivable because they can jink and shoot. And one additional hull point and night shield for only 5 points more.

Only problem would be the range and flamers.

Well, don't forget that the Venom has 2 splinter cannons plus the 5 dudes inside.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call the Raider more survivable in this case. Having to get within 12" of your enemy puts you in range of a lot more fire than when you can shoot him from 36" away. It also puts you well within assault range - which bypasses Jink entirely.

That aside though, my issue with this is that adding 30pts of upgrades to a raider carrying just 40pts of troops seems rather extravagant. I don't think they get enough shots for Splinter Racks to be worthwhile and likewise Night Shields seems like too much investment to protect what is little more than a throwaway unit.

Seems like it would make more sense to keep Raider and Warriors stock and have a 95pt throwaway squad.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 17:07

Main problem using gunboats is that a venom is point for point more efficient in the same task.

Cost:
Gunboat: Raider + splinter racks + 10 Kabalite warriors = 150p
Venom: Venom + additional Spliner Cannon = 65p

Firepower:
Gunboat: 20 twinlinked shots 12"/10 shots 12"-24"
Venom: 12 shots 36"

Take into consideration that a venom costs less than half than a gunboat. This means that cost/eficiency-wise, a venom has more firepower than a gunboat.

Range:
Gunboat: 6" movement + 12"/24" = 18/30" threat range
Venom: 12" movement + 36" = 48" threat range

Survivavility:
Gunboat: 3 HP with access to 3+ jink paying an extra 15p (for a total of 165p/unit).
Venom: 2 HP with 5+ invulnerable save.

A gunboat has to be within 12" of enemy units to be cost/efficient. That not only exposes it to small arms fire, but also in average charge range of every unit in the game, so a gunboat is less survivable than a venom.

There are two ways of making gunboats viable, but we're going deep into wishlisting territory here:
1. Easy option: A formation that gives raiders for free.
2. Fluffy option: A formation that lets you turboboost and shoot or shoot and turboboost in the same turn. You could go near, shoot, then move away or move 24" then fire for a high risk/reward play.

In their current state, no one in their sane mind would take gunboats over venoms to fill the AI role in a DE army.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 17:36

I think you should include the cost of a warrior squad with the venom (so that it's a troop unit, like the gunboat).
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 20:04

I used to use Raiders for Warriors, but now that I have a very decent Court I use for my raider (3 sslyths, 2 medusae, 1 lhamaen) I sprint my archon around, then disembark and start his S3/AP3 mayhem.

Venoms are solid for 4 warriors and 1 with a blaster.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 20:55

Consensus would appear to be:

They're 'ok' at best, inefficient and expensive at worst, so keep them out of competitive lists.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
In their current state, no one in their sane mind would take gunboats over venoms to fill the AI role in a DE army

I think Kabalite Gunboats are pretty good if you KNOW you're up against flying circus Tyranids/Daemons. Getting in range of the flyers is easy enough because you can move 12" and have the same penalty for shooting skyward anyway, having a threat range of 36" (though ideally in rapid fire range). This is where Twin Linked helps immeasurably.

Nothing in the air gets particularly big armour saves ( I don't think any exceed 3+), so the Kabalites kinda just ruin most airbound MC and might even bring them to the ground.

That said, any TAC list should probably choose Venom-bound Warriors over Gunboats.

@Sarkesian wrote:
I used to use Raiders for Warriors, but now that I have a very decent Court I use for my raider (3 sslyths, 2 medusae, 1 lhamaen) I sprint my archon around, then disembark and start his S3/AP3 mayhem.

Yeah, I dig Court Raiders as well. I was just seeing if any of our playerbase tinkers with Kabalites on Raiders.

Coincidentally, I think the Lhamaen actively weakens your build. She doesn't really help for much, and in fact is denying you majority toughness 5 (assuming the Archon you quote is with them)

There's only two builds I see Lhamaens working - the classic, single Lhamean in a Venom for minimum HQ requirements, or the controversial but awesome 9-10 of them in a raider, going full turkey. Add your choice of Independant Character to tank overwatch/supplement them. But I digress.

@Sarkesian wrote:
Venoms are solid for 4 warriors and 1 with a blaster.

Honestly, the blaster isn't even a big deal for these guys. It costs almost half the price of the unit itself, has a different ideal range to both maximum and rapid fire splinter rifle range, and divides their focus.

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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 21:27

Thanks for the advice. I can remove the Lhamaen easily enough, but then I can even change it up to a Venom with 3 sslyths, 1 medusae, and the Archon. Majority 5 toughness, lots of poison, and the template.

The blaster in the venom seems to just help getting that almost guaranteed ap2 wound that will auto-kill characters without Eternal Warrior or Feel No Pain.

I've also sunk a lot of points into a Venom with 2 Cannons, 3 trueborn with blasters and 2 more with cannons. Probably a waste of points in a competitive list, but man does it pump out a ton of damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 22:08

@Sarkesian wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I can remove the Lhamaen easily enough, but then I can even change it up to a Venom with 3 sslyths, 1 medusae, and the Archon. Majority 5 toughness, lots of poison, and the template.

This is 'ok', but it doesn't put out enough dakka to take advantage of your accurate deepstriking (I assume Archon buys WWP). Keep in mind it's very expensive, so you really want it to eat units instantly. It doesn't really save you any points - Raiders and Venoms are much the same price anyway.

If you're playing Venom-based courts, you can run 3-4 Medusae with their WWP Archon to completely roflstomp the target, or just straight 4-5 Sslyth with 0-1 Medusae.

None of these builds are as good as the Raider Court with 4 Sslyth, 3 Medusae and WWP Archon that combines all the best elements the unit can offer. Not easy to kill, and they hit like a tonne of bricks, accurately, and with lots of AP3 templates.

@Sarkesian wrote:
The blaster in the venom seems to just help getting that almost guaranteed ap2 wound that will auto-kill characters without Eternal Warrior or Feel No Pain.

It just seems like anything that is scary enough that you have to shoot at it with a blaster, is something that you should be on the opposite end of the board from. I'd not recommend auto-including them in every list you make.

@Sarkesian wrote:
I've also sunk a lot of points into a Venom with 2 Cannons, 3 trueborn with blasters and 2 more with cannons. Probably a waste of points in a competitive list, but man does it pump out a ton of damage.

I've tinkered with a unit of Trueborn with simply 2 cannons, and even that is exceedingly expensive for what you get. Your unit's costs are next level.

3 Splinter Rifles & 2 Splinter Cannons is a vaguely successful choice due to operating at similar ranges and wanting similar targets, but actively paying points for blasters is just hurting your own unit, demanding far too much from it when it is made up of 5 simple T3 5+ models.

We're an army of specialists, and paying for so many guns that aim at different units with different ranges and levels of mobility is ultimately wasting points.

If my memory is correct about pricing, you're paying ~195 points or so for your unit. For that price I can straight up buy 3 regular venoms with 2 cannons. I know which is pumping out 36 shots at 36" + full movement of 12" prior each, at 3 different enemy targets, and it is not the trueborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 22:18

Gotcha. I'm still relatively new and don't get too much chance to play yet, so its all just mostly theory for me. I'll look into getting more unite for my Court, especially with those new rumors floating around they are only getting better. All taken with a grain of salt though.

When using raiders not as gun-boats or grot delivery, what do you use them for? I've taken them for Harlequins, or a group of wyches with either succubus or hekatrix.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 23:34

Snap. I forgot the costs of the Warriors inside the Venom and their fire.

Maybe the Raider is viable against guard where the strength 3 can't do a thing...?

Why not skip the Sslyth completely and take 4 Medusae to just delete enemy squads? Put them into a night shielded Raider with a portal archon and you are good.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Fri Feb 12 2016, 23:49

I prefer venoms, but still use gunboats occasionally. Ten men, one cannon. Splinter racks and night Shields.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Sat Feb 13 2016, 00:26

How about a 10-sslyth raider? It's expensive, but it's 30 twin-link poison shot. It will be focussed by the ennemy, but when the raider will wreck, the sslyth will be at assault range for the next turn.

Well, 9sslyth and a llamaean, for the leadership...
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Sun Feb 14 2016, 21:49

I hope it's at least somewhat viable... It's kind of the core to my small dark eldar army I just bought. Since grots are stupid expensive and don't really look all that great is their another use for my raiders? maybe Harlequins?
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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Mon Feb 15 2016, 09:49

@Colej wrote:
I hope it's at least somewhat viable... It's kind of the core to my small dark eldar army I just bought. Since grots are stupid expensive and don't really look all that great is their another use for my raiders? maybe Harlequins?

Raider's top 3 uses tend to be for allies - your choice of Harlies or CWE, a Court or Grotesques. Don't be afraid of the latter too. They're very good and easy enough to convert.

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PostSubject: Re: Shooty Raiders?   Wed Feb 17 2016, 01:41

@Colej wrote:
I hope it's at least somewhat viable... It's kind of the core to my small dark eldar army I just bought. Since grots are stupid expensive and don't really look all that great is their another use for my raiders? maybe Harlequins?

Raiders are amazing for Masque harlequins. 3hp open topped vehicle with 3+ cover save? Yes please. I used to use them before I switched to Starweavers (You have to pay 2 FA ones anyways, might as well use them to save some points)

If you wanna play Grots, I uploaded a conversion guide using talos bits and greenstuff. You might find it useful
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