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 The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:10 pm

Archon Vitcus wrote:
Negligible value? They are free weapons that ignore 2+ saves

They are not free by any measure.

You are paying for them in the cost of the vehicle. In the case of a Dissi Ravager, you are paying entirely for them. But, regardless of vehicle, they also have an opportunity cost in that you are taking them instead of a dark lance - this in an army that struggles with anti-armour.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:20 pm

Would a better comparison be a Venom against a Dissie Razorwing. Not a straight comparison given the points and capability differences, but closer than with a Ravager.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:54 am

Imateria wrote:
Would a better comparison be a Venom against a Dissie Razorwing. Not a straight comparison given the points and capability differences, but closer than with a Ravager.

I think that would cause problems. Flyer vs non-flyer is far from ideal, and the Razorwing also comes with 4 large blasts (which is usually what people take it for).
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:54 am

Xm0shcryptX wrote:
@hydranixx but pulse lasers on hornets for 80 points are no big deal? Strength 6 is not too much in the least

We're comparing 4 shots to 12 shots (assuming Salvo 2/4. Strength matters, and if you reckon strength 6 is a good idea for the dissie, it makes it just straight up superior to all other forms of plasma rifles/guns/scatter lasers. We're on a more flimsy platform, sure, but so are Hornets you mention - though in fact we have one hull point more and one weapon more.

I agree that Hornets do push the borders, with pulse lasers getting 4 shots at good strength and AP. I think they're a bit over the top. But don't forget the two guns are used for different roles. Paladins or tanks got you down? Hornets. 8 Honour Guard with Artificer Armour eating through your army? Dissies.

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:06 am

Paying for them in the cost of the raider? Funny I thought I was paying the points for a transport vehicle so a weapon that comes stock without added point value, is a free weapon
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:07 am

hydranixx wrote:
Xm0shcryptX wrote:
@hydranixx but pulse lasers on hornets for 80 points are no big deal? Strength 6 is not too much in the least

We're comparing 4 shots to 12 shots

I thought we were comparing 4 S8 AP2 shots for 80pts to 9 S6 AP2 shots for 110pts?

Archon Vitcus wrote:
Paying for them in the cost of the raider? Funny I thought I was paying the points for a transport vehicle so a weapon that comes stock without added point value, is a free weapon

I'm not seeing your logic. At all.
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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:23 am

Archon Vitcus wrote:
Paying for them in the cost of the raider? Funny I thought I was paying the points for a transport vehicle so a weapon that comes stock without added point value, is a free weapon

Definitely paying for it in the cost of the Raider, unless you really think the Raider is worth double that of a Rhino without it.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:17 pm

The Shredder wrote:
hydranixx wrote:
Xm0shcryptX wrote:
@hydranixx but pulse lasers on hornets for 80 points are no big deal? Strength 6 is not too much in the least

We're comparing 4 shots to 12 shots

I thought we were comparing 4 S8 AP2 shots for 80pts to 9 S6 AP2 shots for 110pts?

Alas, we were not.

We were discussing the idea of changing weapon profile to Salvo 2/4. At which point, there was talk that they should get strength 6 (
Xm0shcryptX wrote:
Strength 6 is not too much in the least
, IN ADDITION, to the new profile of Salvo 2/4.

Hence 12 shots. At Strength 6. And AP2. Stronger than a Tantalus.

I couldn't possibly see a weapon like that existing in a world where you and your Scatter Lasers also exist. Oh the horror.

To be honest, price hadn't come into the picture, but it should probably cost 90-100 points for the base Ravager if it were Salvo 2/4. If somehow, Cthulhu himself blessed us with both 4 shots per gun, and strength 6, we could pay something like 110-120 like we do at the moment.

The CURRENT Dissie Ravager is *fun* but admittedly nothing compared to a stock Hornet.

Of course I'll agree with you there.

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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:32 pm

Hornets are AV11. I love so very much that everyone here compares wish list guns against those of other factions when the point of a glass cannon should BE that our guns are better. Yes s6 3 shots would make it the best plasma gun outside of admech, but so what? That's the point of our army
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:06 am

I thought the best plasma weapon was the Tyranid Exocrine, S7 with A6 or Large Blast at BS4 (high for a Nid). Shame about the 24" range though.
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Schismotive
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:14 pm

The Shredder wrote:
I know other people have had more positive experiences, but I've been perpetually underwhelmed by disintegrators. For me they're one of those weapons that looks impressive on paper, but always fails on the battlefield.

This is my experience too. The disintegrator is a fantastic gun on paper but we just don't get it on enough platforms. Raiders aren't worth bringing in the numbers you would need to make their disintegrators effective. Ravagers also pretty much need the dark lances as we have so few ways to deal with vehicles. I think the razorwing is the only thing worth taking the disintegrators on but like people are saying we already have 4 missiles for crowd control.

Imo a good fix would be a universal points decrease and/or more platforms for the dissintegrator and dark lance.
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tegs
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PostSubject: Re: The Disintegrator Cannon: A Ballistics Test   Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:10 pm

Sorry to necro this, but I was thinking about this today, and it's a discussion worth having.

An element that appears lacking here is what you'll be facing. Against the termie heavy SM and GK armies I often play against, a Raider with a Dissie and NS is significantly better than a Venom. It won't ID an IC as well as a DL, but I think that's a fair trade off. In my mind, anti-vehicle is better suited to Ravagers anyway.

Against the Eldar player I play against, Venoms are significantly better, particularly since he always hides a D-Cannon artillery unit in the back somewhere.

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