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 Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?

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Electric Wizard
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PostSubject: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Thu Jan 28 2016, 18:47

Greetings all,
I would really like to hear your Personal gaming  experience and thoughts and tactics on running reavers in groups of 3 or a larger group of 6.
Are multiple smaller units better for flanking and grabbing objectives or are they plagued by leadership troubles?
Caltrops are really good for 15 points correct?
   Do the larger units weather shooting better and are more resilient in combat?
Thank you in advance for your time and energy.
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Thu Jan 28 2016, 19:52

Always Caltrops. Units of three are the only ones worth taking guns on - they're both less threatening and less likely to get shot at, and you also lose less when you have to Jink them. Units of three are also good for using their assault move to get in front of Ravagers and such - that 5+ cover save, or 4+ with Nightshields, without jinking.

Units of six are better if you want to actually win combats with them. Statistically you'll even get 29/18 hull points charging an armor 12 walker - if you field the full Reaver spam list, a few squads of 6 (or 9, but I generally feel 6 is enough unless maybe you want to stick an Autarch in with them and want a larger unit to benefit) can even take on Dreadnoughts and the like. I've once had 3 squads of 6 charge an Imperial Knight, take 4 hull points off, Hit & Run two squads off while the third ties up the Knight, then kill it at range the next turn with some Scourge. Targets like a Marine squad, six Reavers are almost guaranteed to take out: ~4 (71/18) go down to Hammer of Wrath, and Reavers aren't slouches in combat if you hit the right drugs or are up to Furious Charge. You've got a full Venom's worth of shooting before you charge if you're in Rapid Fire range too.

I typically run units of six, unless I'm in a CAD with fewer than three FA choices - then I might split up into units of three. I'll never lose ObSec go RSR solely for the benefit of MSU reavers, or drop other Fast Attack units for MSU Reavers. No matter whether 3 or 6 though, Reavers are fantastic for objective grabbing. It's not uncommon to see a game where over half your Maelstorm points come from Reavers zooming about.

The one other consideration with them is the Arena Champion - I'm not a fan of them personally, but I've seen upgrading one Caltrop bearer to Champion so you can use challenges to snipe characters out with Hammer of Wrath. You could give the guy an Agonizer or something too for being even more guaranteed to autowin challenges - but I wouldn't recommend it. Poor results the one game I tried running them that way. Keep Reaver squads nice and cheap at 126pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Thu Jan 28 2016, 20:25

I have been running 3 groups of 6 reavers with an Arena Champion and Cluster Caltrops for months now, and they usually play a huge role in winning games (in Maelstrom missions anyway).  They can snag objectives that are lightly defended, take out lighter vehicles, and generally keep your opponent on his toes through their ability to basically be anywhere on the table in one movement phase. Caltrops are absolutely worth the points.

I experimented with groups of 3 for a bit, but they were just too small to really make an impact on anything other than grabbing undefended objectives.  If your goal is just to have some cheap, fast objective grabbers, then maybe groups of 3, but Reavers will always be outclassed by Craftworld Jetbikes.

As far as shooting upgrades goes--I dont usually give them blasters or anything.  They always seem to be a target and so are constantly jinking.  I HAVE read about other Archons having much more success with this though, so it could be worth messing with.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Thu Jan 28 2016, 22:44

I used to run 3 units of 3 in my list.

One guy in each squad had Cluster Caltrops and either a Blaster or Heat Lance (mainly depending on my mood). The other two guys go in front (or wherever I'm expecting the most fire from) and act as meat-shields.

They've been a staple of my list for sometime (the only reason I haven't used them in a while is that I've basically moved to Corsairs).

One thing I liked was that at 73pts per squad they were entirely disposable. I could send them on suicide missions without worrying about the loss. Also, with a heat lance and cluster caltrops, they're a threat to most units in the game - especially non-walker vehicles, which were my favourite target. Plus, with a 3+ Jink save (and possibly FNP) they could be quite a pain to get rid of. They were also pretty easy to hide behind terrain (and, thanks to skilled rider, they never need to take dangerous terrain tests).

With regard to ranges weapons, I'd give them because it encouraged the opponent to shoot them. As above, they're actually pretty durable by our standard, and I can lose 2/3 of the squad with negligible loss in firepower or melee ability.

Anyway, my suggestion would be to see how many FA slots you have. If you have plenty, run Reavers in units of 3. It lets you spread out more, but if you need to take on a tougher target you can simply combine multiple units to take it out. However, if you're short of FA slots, running units of 6 might be a better idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Thu Jan 28 2016, 23:15

It depends on what you want the reavers to do.

I like to have a small 3 man sacrificial unit with maybe a special gun or caltrops. The small unit of for for objective or, maelstrom or getting line breaker. If not I like unit of 6 with caltrops. They can do a good number on smaller units and hurt vehicles on the charge with the caltrops.

I think the only bad option for bikes is getting carried away and putting too many points into the them. 6 bikes with 2 caltrops, 2 guns and a champ for example.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 01:19

@ The Shredder

Interesting. I'd like to run 3 units of 3 reavers but havent had much success so far.  Would you mind describing how you use them on the table top a bit more?
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 03:46

As they've all mentioned, keep them reasonably cheap. They're affordable to work with, and you can do a heck of a lot with small groups of three.

I recommend checking out two articles by our old resident Reaver spammer Mushkilla. He used them prolifically back in 5th, and even though he's moved onto Coven lists now, his experience with Reavers is yours for the taking.

Here are the two guides that could be most helpful to you:

Screening with Reavers

Blocking with Reavers

Of course, these are some fairly high-end uses for them.

Generally, pure target saturation tactics work well outside of kill point missions. They have to decide if they want to waste a whole unit shooting at only 3 Reavers, and if there's only one left but it has the Caltrops and Lance, it makes it even more of an annoying choice to make.

Alternatively, just keep them fairly safe looking for targets of opportunity with their JSJ abuse. The longer the game goes on, the better value a Reaver unit adds - capable of going 48" in one turn to contest/take objectives is just insane, and the PfP actually helps Reavers as it makes them better and better every consecutive turn for attacking enemies holding objectives too. By turn 5, even 3 of them is a very scary prospect for most troops.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 09:55

I still don't get them. A Venom can move 30". If you can't steal an objective late game with that move, you are doing something wrong. As far as survivability is concerned, who can't kill 6 Marines? T4 with a 3+ save ... hardly killer. Also, do you guys not come across Ignores Cover weapons all over the table? Hot knife through butter Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 10:02

Hellstrom wrote:
I still don't get them.  A Venom can move 30".  If you can't steal an objective late game with that move, you are doing something wrong.  As far as survivability is concerned, who can't kill 6 Marines?  T4 with a 3+ save ... hardly killer.  Also, do you guys not come across Ignores Cover weapons all over the table?  Hot knife through butter Wink

They're tricky to use but the idea is to have them in combat for as many of the enemy turns as possible, keeping them safe from shooting, and then hit & run out to charge in again on your turn for those juicy HoW hits. 3+ Jink against overwatch helps mitigate casualties on the charge unless you're assaulting a wall of flamers.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 11:59

Hellstrom wrote:
I still don't get them.  A Venom can move 30".  If you can't steal an objective late game with that move, you are doing something wrong.

That's certainly true, but then I don't bring them to steal objectives. With the possible exception of the Relic. 6" move + 6" Turbo Boost + up to 6" assault move. pirat

What I mainly bring mine for is the Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops for anti-vehicle (something venoms can't handle).

Hellstrom wrote:
As far as survivability is concerned, who can't kill 6 Marines?  T4 with a 3+ save ... hardly killer.  

Depends what's firing at them. They're a lot better against, say, plasmaguns than marines. And FNP (when they're eventually allowed their own rules) helps a bit. If you're really worried about them, a unit of 3 is usually pretty easy to hide in cover (and, with skilled rider, you suffer no penalty for doing so).

That aside, I find that their best defence is simply MSU builds. In my experience, a lot of opponents don't want to dedicate fire to removing 3 Jetbikes.

Hellstrom wrote:
 Also, do you guys not come across Ignores Cover weapons all over the table?  Hot knife through butter Wink

I do, but then Ignores Cover is a problem for most of our units. As above, I think the Reavers' best defence is by being relatively poor value. e.g. a Chaos player will probably want to kill a high-value target with his Helldrake - not 3 Jetbikes.


Stale Act wrote:
@ The Shredder

Interesting. I'd like to run 3 units of 3 reavers but havent had much success so far.  Would you mind describing how you use them on the table top a bit more?

Sure.

The main point though is that Reavers are basically my 'odd job' unit. Whilst they do have a defined role in my list (killing light vehicles), they're very flexible and can do a lot of other things as well.

Okay, in terms of deployment it depends how much cover there is. If cover is plentiful, then I'll probably start them behind such (ideally trying to hide the Heat-Lance and Cluster Caltrop Jetbike in each squad). If cover is sparse, then I might instead start them in front of my Ravager and/or Raiders to give them cover.

If I'm deploying second, I'll usually have targets in mind for each squad (which may overlap). I generally look for vehicles with front or side AV of 10-11. Otherwise, you might have to either do more work to get behind them, or else rely solely on the heat lance.

If the enemy has drop pods, dreadnoughts or such that arrive in my deployment zone on the first turn, I might well send the Reavers after those. Otherwise, I'll turbo boost them as close as possible to their target vehicles, but also behind whatever cover is available (again, trying to screen the heat lance and caltrop Jetbike in each squad). Because I'm generally going for the front/side AV, I'll usually aim for cover outside my opponent's deployment zone. However, if I need to get to rear armour, I'll obviously have to try and get to a piece of cover behind the target.

If I've positioned them well, the squads will usually be mostly or completely intact at this point. Each unit will hop out of cover and I'll align the heat lance reaver with the weakest AV facing he can reach. They'll then unload their heat-lances into their respective targets and hope for the best.

If I'm lucky, the heat lances will destroy the vehicle in one hit. Something of a long-shot, but happens occasionally. Otherwise, it will hopefully strip a hull point from the vehicle. If I have Dark Lances and/or Scourges available at this point, I might fire some at the vehicle and see if I can get the remaining hull points off. If I can (or if it exploded), I'll use the Reavers assault move to hop to whatever safety is available (if it was a transport, I could potentially assault the unit inside instead, but unless it's a really fragile one I'd be wary of this - since Reavers are a lot more fragile in melee and lack punch). Otherwise, they'll assault it and try to strip its hull points with cluster caltrops and bladevanes.

if they succeed and survive, then they'll either pick another target and do the same or (if no appropriate targets are available), they'll instead pick an alternate task. e.g. using their heat lance and splinter rifles against infantry and either jumping back behind cover or assaulting to finish them off. Or, if I have some assault units, I might use a depleted Reaver squad to absorb some overwatch for them.

Also, a few general points:
- I know I've said Heat Lance all the way though, but you could easily take a blaster instead. Lacks the punch of the heat lance, but is better against MCs and has a longer range if you want to try some JSJ tactics with them.
- Also, I know that I've been implying different targets for each Reaver squad, but this needn't be the case. If one vehicle is a serious threat or harder to take down, by all means send multiple Reavers at it. If your opponent has some vehicles clustered together, you could send multiple reavers into their midst, and decide on targets based on how shooting goes.
- Also also, whilst I like them against vehicles, don't think that this is their only use. You could just as easily use them to kill or tie up some backfield devastator squads (or some equivalent thereof) or a Riptide, or to get a Thunderfire Cannon.
- I'd advise always jinking with Reavers. They're a useful harassment unit, and so it's better to keep them alive for as long as possible. Also, you'll still have your caltrops and bladevanes.
- Be careful against targets that can fight back.
- Don't forget Combat Drugs. Most of the results are about as useful as napkin-dispensers, but +1T or +1S can make a big difference.
- Don't forget about Hit and Run. I've often cursed myself for forgetting this rule after my opponent tied a reaver squad up in combat.

Hope this helps. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 14:46

The Shredder wrote:

Hope this helps. Smile

It absolutely does, thanks.  I'll be giving units of three another go this weekend!

hydranixx wrote:

Here are the two guides that could be most helpful to you:

Screening with Reavers

Blocking with Reavers

Mush's battle reports with his Reaver-spam army is what got me interested in Dark Eldar back in the day. Beyond epic.  Glad to see he's still getting props for his skills.  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 15:59

I'll give them another go Shredder. Just for you Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 18:51

Also agree with 6 bikes per unit.
I run 4 units of 6 in a RSR. The skilled rider is the secret sauce for me in that they can hop scotch from terrain piece to terrain piece to block LoS. No LoS no shot, even with Ignore Cover.

Hiding in assault is another way round survival issues. Charge on my turn, take out a enough so the swing back is minimal then hit & run in your turn. Squad of 3 cant survive that

I tried units of 9 a few times. The third caltrop is nasty but many times it was overkill against smaller units and without a low AP (or lots of lucky rending rolls) not enough versus tougher armor. The footprint is massive so Heldrake flames or Tyrant template weapons couldn't cover the whole unit, but a markerlight heavy Tau army just laughed at it, especially on turn 1 before you have FnP.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 20:58

Stale Act wrote:

Mush's battle reports with his Reaver-spam army is what got me interested in Dark Eldar back in the day. Beyond epic.  Glad to see he's still getting props for his skills.  Very Happy

He's always going to get the props he deserves; Dark Eldar are tough to play with, but Mush has taught many of us numerous alternative options and play styles so that I actually stand a chance. Many of his battle reports have me thinking "Wow how can he possibly win this!?" after turn 1 or 2, or even just comparing the lists. He never fails to impress, even when the odds are stacked.

Render Noir wrote:

Also agree with 6 bikes per unit.
I run 4 units of 6 in a RSR.

So many Reavers!

There's a lot of things out there that can really give it to you if you're playing so many of these. Back with the old bladevanes rules, sure, but now....

Render Noir wrote:

No LoS no shot, even with Ignore Cover.

There's more counters than you think. Barrage artillery don't care about LOS at all. Take the Wyvern for example - Shred, Ignores cover, 4 small blasts. It should eat the whole 6 man unit in one shooting phase, and is less than half their price.

Any mobile flamer is having a field day. Landspeeders, Heldrakes, Hellhounds, Leman Russ Eradicators, Noise Marines... I realise these are good units against all Dark Eldar, but I think they're going to love seeing 6 Reavers in a squad.

Render Noir wrote:

Hiding in assault is another way round survival issues. Charge on my turn, take out a enough so the swing back is minimal then hit & run in your turn. Squad of 3 cant survive that

With 6 Reavers, I can't think of very many targets that won't just die, or run away, after eating so many rending HoWs followed up by all your attacks, and if the drug roll is good, they're toast. You're kind of aiming at Fearless or ATSKNF units only, I think.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Fri Jan 29 2016, 22:16

I'm a big fan of 6 reaver with 2 clatrops and no other upgrades. The unit has so many uses and are great at generating threat in the early game to draw fire away from other units. If left alpne they can do serious work. They are my favorite pick in our fast attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Sat Jan 30 2016, 14:11

I'll add that if you like to ally Eldar, a unit of 6 with two caltrops is a great place to put an autarch with a laser lance and banshee mask.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Sat Jan 30 2016, 15:51

A Corsair Prince might be interesting too. 5 S5 AP3 Rending attacks on the charge could synergise quite well with their Caltrops.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Sat Jan 30 2016, 22:03

I currently only have six Reavers and lately have been running them in a group of six with two CC.

I love this unit and I try and try and try to use them well, which is why I keep putting them into my lists but I feel like I haven't learned to utilize them correctly yet.

The last three games I've taken them, the two Caltrops have rolled either 2 or 3 attacks on their initial charge and whiffed very badly. The last game I took them, I got them all the way around the flanks and behind my opponents forces. I used them to charge a naked cultist unit to push them off an objective. I rolled two attacks total with the Cluster Caltrops and all in all, I killed maybe three models and actually lost in combat and ran.

There have been a few games were they've performed very well. At a tournament once, I brought them in from reserves, took out a scout unit that was on my flank and proceeded up the field to kill a thunderfire cannon taking the entire flank and opponents back board (he DS'd most of his units).

The bad experiences occur far more often than the good. I don't cop that up to "this unit is garbage" but I'm still trying to figure out how to optimally use them.

I will keep taking them in most of my lists and I'm planning on buying another six eventually. I see the potential, I just haven't unlocked it yet.

P.S.

I've been thinking about getting some allies. I was going to stay away from CWE because it's just overdone (I'm not the most competitive guy in the world and all my friends are pretty lax players) but I thought a really fun idea was the Corsair Prince in a group of Reavers as The Shredder mentioned earlier.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Sun Jan 31 2016, 03:43

The Shredder wrote:

Anyway, my suggestion would be to see how many FA slots you have. If you have plenty, run Reavers in units of 3. It lets you spread out more, but if you need to take on a tougher target you can simply combine multiple units to take it out. However, if you're short of FA slots, running units of 6 might be a better idea.

This is it for mine.

I love my reavers more than is healthy. They are a blast to play with. Fast, tactical, dangerous and they score most of my obj points and win me games.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Mon Feb 01 2016, 19:25

hydranixx wrote:
Stale Act wrote:


There's more counters than you think. Barrage artillery don't care about LOS at all. Take the Wyvern for example - Shred, Ignores cover, 4 small blasts. It should eat the whole 6 man unit in one shooting phase, and is less than half their price.

If he wasting his barrage on my reavers and not the rest of my list its a minor victory, but to your point Wyvern batteries ruin my day, but we have few  Astra Militarium in our local meta

Any mobile flamer is having a field day. Landspeeders, Heldrakes, Hellhounds, Leman Russ Eradicators, Noise Marines... I realise these are good units against all Dark Eldar, but I think they're going to love seeing 6 Reavers in a squad.

Its al about positioning. I don't shoot much with my reavers so if they don't have a charge use the turbo boost. I screw up at times and it ends poorly pretty quick. My biggest issue is really Flying Hive Tyrants with templates. 360' shooting that ignores cover, auto hits, and movement to spare

With 6 Reavers, I can't think of very many targets that won't just die, or run away, after eating so many rending HoWs followed up by all your attacks, and if the drug roll is good, they're toast. You're kind of aiming at Fearless or ATSKNF units only, I think.

Yes my meta has a lot of ATSKNF and fearless units. Even so here is my math (and my experience backs it up)
7 Cluster caltrops hits -> 6 wounds ---> 2 dead MEQ
4 Bladevane hits -> 3.67 wounds + 0.67 rends ->3 dead MEQ
CCW 4 x 3 attacks -> 6 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1.67 dead meq
so 6-7 dead MEQ per charge. if they have FnP or RA (Necrons) this drops further

Based on my local meta you maybe right
I see lots of Marines, ECW Jetbikes, Necrons - all basically MEQ or tougher
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Tue Feb 02 2016, 11:22

I don't understand your math on these. 4 hits from bladevanes, for example, would only average 2 wounds, so how are you coming out to 3 dead MEQ? For the CCW attacks, if you inflict 2 wounds, that shouldn't be 1.67 getting through 3+ armor, that would be 0.67.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Tue Feb 02 2016, 11:40

I think the clue that the math is off might be that Bladevanes can apparently generate more wounds than they have hits. Neutral

Anyway, some revised numbers for anyone interested:
2 Cluster Caltrops: 7 hits (on average), 2.72 dead MEQ
4 Bladevanes: 1.11 dead MEQ
18 attacks: 1 dead MEQ
Total: 4.83 dead MEQ
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Tue Feb 02 2016, 17:56

If our reavers had 36" range, strength 6 heavy 4 guns and counted as troop choices I would take them Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Tue Feb 02 2016, 18:12

In that case, I suspect the question would be more along the lines of 'at the moment, my list only has 18 Jetbikes (6 units of 3). Is that enough, or should I take another CAD and get another 18 or so'? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers in units of 3 or 6 ?   Tue Feb 02 2016, 22:04

I like how you left off the 3+ save and we still don't care.
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