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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Jan 26 2016, 16:18

There are so many armies that can take blast Dark Eldar off the table in turn one that reserve manipulation and fire denial is critical these days. SM drop pod lists, Eldar scatterbikes, Tau crazyness and IG tank spam can all do some real damage that it's almost impossible to recover from. By starting most units in reserve you deny an entire turn of fire for your opponent and you get to show up where you need to to be most effective. I always take a Autarch to help bring in my toys on turn two, but I have been struggling to find a points efficient unit (or set of units) to hold the table on turn one.

I usually bring two units of two Talos and bury them in cover. They always survive, but it's pretty expensive. I've been thinking about three units of one talos... They're less points and mean my opponent has to concentrate on three units rather than two. The only thing I'd fear with this option is grav and plasma cannons.

I have thought about a Corpstheif Claw... but it's way too expensive for holding the table on turn one. I have thought about a Scalpel Squadron, but if I go first, I could get blasted off the table in the bottom of turn one... Mandrakes?

Things that don't work: lots of MSU. They get blasted and can't recover. Cover alone won't save you.

Thoughts?
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Jan 26 2016, 17:34

As you said there's lots of ignores cover so as nice as a 2+ is they frequently would die anyway. What I typically run is 4 venoms and 4x5 warrior squads, this has been the minimum board presence needed to live 2 turns (going second) I have all my warriors hide behind an aegis with comms relay. And I spread my venoms far apart to split up alpha strike lists and if they live the grab maelstrom objectives.. You certainly will still take a massive beating. But driving on 3 dissie ravagers. And having wwp stuff come in I return the beating plus some Smile
Hope this helps I have the same problem and try lots of different ideas but tau just laugh at everything we bring soo
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Wed Jan 27 2016, 10:53

I've played games where anything in my army that sticks its head above LOSB terrain has it blown off in the next shooting phase so reserving most of my army is a necessity.

With a decent amount of LOSB terrain + MSU (even tho you say it doesn't work) i can still win if i play very carefully and concentrate on the mission.

I like an autarch for reserve manipulation and 4-5 expendable units like single lhamaeans, venoms and small warrior and reaver units hiding behind LOSB terrain in my dep zone can survive till the reserves came on in my exp.

Weapons that don't require LOS like tau SMS are a pain but you just have to take that hit or be out of range.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Wed Jan 27 2016, 20:56

@Rancid blade wrote:
I have thought about a Scalpel Squadron, but if I go first, I could get blasted off the table in the bottom of turn one...  Mandrakes?

You can always choose to play second if you win the roll, and half the time your opponent chooses first anyway. If he/she makes you go first, then simply don't keep everything in reserve?

Commit to the middle of the board with the bulk of your units because you'll get to shoot first and force the necessary moral checks, shaken results and heavy weapon losses so that your opponent can't shoot back as hard.

If you get to go second Just As Planned, you're able to skip at least one entire turn of the enemy shooting, and then one other turn where all they can shoot at is Wracks and Venoms that are hiding in your deployment by cover.

Remember, they can drop off their wracks as they arrive, who can still run d6 behind LOSB or into cover, and they the venoms can boost off 12" ignoring terrain. You'd be hard pressed NOT to find somewhere safe for at least 2 of these 4 units.

Mandrakes, I think, are an ok insurance. Placing a minimum squad in a corner means that you have something extra just in case, and its fairly rare to see long range ignore cover guns. However, Eldar rangers perform the same function while being troops and having actual guns, and you can then include your Autarch and have already completed your HQ + Troops from the allies group.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Wed Jan 27 2016, 21:45

Mandrakes have inf stealth and shrouded. Also a Void-shield generator with 3 is 100 points. Good luck getting blasted off the table if you play a couple mandrakes in funky spots and drop something as bait underneath the shield.

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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Wed Jan 27 2016, 22:26

@hydranixx wrote:
Remember, they can drop off their wracks as they arrive, who can still run d6 behind LOSB or into cover, and they the venoms can boost off 12" ignoring terrain.

Are you sure that's how it works? The rulebook states in the Transports section:

Quote :
If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move
normally.

And in the Deep Strike section:

Quote :
Vehicles, except
for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles).

Suggests that you can't both disembark passengers and go Flat Out is you came in by Deep Strike - that's how I've always played it at least - please tell me I'm wrong. Regardless, yeah, the Venom boost of 18" can generally get them to safety.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 00:32

I've read on this very forum that this is one way to efficiently priced (as far as playing Dark Eldar can be..) to secure a null deployment strategy, relying on the premise they can disembark.

You have me second guessing it now, but perhaps someone with a better understand of the rules can enlighten us. Perhaps if the Count chances across this he can confirm how it works.

I do believe, if it is the worst case scenario that they cannot disembark, the 18" is enough, coupled with the T4 of the wracks so exploding venoms aren't as much of a liability. They'd need long range AP 1 or 2 to have a good chance of that anyway.

Overall, I think this is better than any of the other options presented because venoms are always in demand. The Wracks themselves, while not good, do follow Covens PFP and apply the fear aura of -1 leadership. In later turns, mandrakes and backfield Taloi do little to actually contribute, and the VSG might not be in a good enough position to help the units you need it to.

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Ispa
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 06:11

...way i read it.

You can move venom 6" disembark OR disembark then move 12" (in the movement phase)
wracks can disembark 6"

THEN in the shooting phase
Venom moves flat out 18 inches
Wracks run a further D6(or shoot/assault).


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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 06:48

@MHaruspex wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:
Remember, they can drop off their wracks as they arrive, who can still run d6 behind LOSB or into cover, and they the venoms can boost off 12" ignoring terrain.

Are you sure that's how it works? The rulebook states in the Transports section:

Quote :
If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move
normally.

And in the Deep Strike section:

Quote :
Vehicles, except
for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles).

Suggests that you can't both disembark passengers and go Flat Out is you came in by Deep Strike - that's how I've always played it at least - please tell me I'm wrong. Regardless, yeah, the Venom boost of 18" can generally get them to safety.


yup, you're wrong Very Happy

Deep strike p162 Units may disembark from their transports and move no further in the movement phase and all units may fire or run, flatout or turbo boost. I could type it all, but there is a lot there and my tea is getting cold.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 08:14

Hey guys,

I wanted to let you all know that at tonight's league, I followed the advice regarding using the Scalpel Squadron to hold the table on turn one and it worked out really well.

I faced off against a light scatterbike list which included a bunch of scatterbike squads (4 squads of three), 2 farseers on bike, 3 tanks, a Crimson Hunter, and a Wraithknight. He also had a formation with Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers. It was plenty of firepower to blow me off the table had I deployed. Instead, I took the second turn and held everything in reserve. In his first turn, nothing happened. At the bottom of turn one, the Squadron dropped in, took a maelstrom objective and shot at some bikes. I hid the wracks as best as I could, but by the start of my turn 2, I was down to one wrack left. Then, in my turn two, everything else came on and lit up one side of his army wiping out entire squads of bikes and a Farseer. It worked out really well. I ended up taking the game and by turn seven all he had left was the Crimson Hunter and two Warp Spiders... Chalk one up for the Dark Eldar!

I did pay almost 260 points for the right to nul deploy, but it was worth it. In the past I had used two squads of two talos to hold the table on the first turn... That's twice the cost of the Scalpel Squadron. Had I deployed everything on the table turn one, I know I would have lost vastly more than that before I even fired a shot.

Thanks again! RB
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 09:22

@Rancid blade wrote:
Then, in my turn two, everything else came on and lit up one side of his army wiping out entire squads of bikes and a Farseer.  It worked out really well.  I ended up taking the game and by turn seven all he had left was the Crimson Hunter and two Warp Spiders...  Chalk one up for the Dark Eldar!

The textbook way to use a null deployment! Oh how sweet it is when a carefully laid plan pays off!

Congratulations! Twisted Evil
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 09:26

Just to clear up the rules about what the Wracks and Venoms can do after arriving by deep strike, the Wracks can disembark from the Venom in the movement phase in the usual way (6" from hull). They can then shoot, run etc as normal in the shooting phase but cannot assault.

With regard to the Venom, whilst the deep strike rules say that these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal that doesn't override the restriction in the transport section that if the vehicle had already moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle cannot move further that turn (including pivoting on the spot, moving Flat Out, Running or charging). In addition, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock or Ram on a turn that a unit disembarks from it.

As the Venom counts as having moved at combat speed in the movement phase then the above restrictions would apply

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Jan 28 2016, 10:06

@Rancid blade wrote:
Hey guys,

I wanted to let you all know that at tonight's league, I followed the advice regarding using the Scalpel Squadron to hold the table on turn one and it worked out really well.

Good lad! Scalpel Squadron can be just what the doctor ordered for this type of list.

@Rancid blade wrote:

Thanks again! RB

I am glad to have helped! We need any edge we can get pirat

@Count Adhemar wrote:

As the Venom counts as having moved at combat speed in the movement phase then the above restrictions would apply

And I am also glad that you helped me understand this better. Thanks a bunch, Count Adhemar!

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Sat Jan 30 2016, 01:45

You know what? I read that wrong. Not that I've ever dumped off units then turbo boosted, but still. Would be nice though...

That being said, should the scalpel squad mishap, turbo boosting back into range is nice to be able to do!

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Sat Jan 30 2016, 05:43

I definitely agree with the sentiment that to come anywhere close to competitive these days it is vital that we strike first at our enemies, eh I mean unsuspecting prey.

For what it's worth I'll be taking my Dark Eldar to a tournament next month and for lack of a Scalpel Squadron and loathing to take Eldar allies I've eventually settled on a (captured) bastion with comms relay. I'll stick a unit of Mandrakes inside or Kabalite Warriors and leave maybe a Ravager on the table if I can hide it well enough.

I'll let you know how it went.

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ortamuswolf
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Sun Mar 06 2016, 08:30

hey blackcadian, how did that tactic go?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Mon Mar 07 2016, 21:52

The best bang for your buck for a model that can reliably take hits for a round? The CWE Vaul's Wrath Support battery.

30 points per vibro or shadow weaver artillery battery nets you 4 T7 wounds against shooting. WAY more cost effective than a Talos for the same toughness/wounds. I run them in units of 3 artillery batteries, for a total of 12 T7 wounds. I always throw 1 gunner out front as an ablative wound since they only have 5+ armour, then let the guns tank at 3+ armour. If you throw a group of these behind a low wall like an aegis defense line, they're incredibly difficult to shift. 2 Full units of 3 will only cost you 180 points and give you 24 T7 Wounds for your enemy to chew through. I generally like to put a farseer in one of the units to give both units twin-linked so that they have some nice teeth to bite back with.

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mika
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Mar 08 2016, 04:24

I'm planning to use a Callidus Assasin for this purpose. She is even more expensive then a talos, but there is absolutely no way whatsoever to shoot her down in the first round.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Mar 08 2016, 05:09

Well, she would be pretty effective, I'll give you that. But a single successful S8 hit would instakill her. So if you come up against an opponent with 3 hornets in a squadron with crystal targeting matrix, you'd be pretty well buggered.

They could flat out 30" across the table turn 1 and fire 6 S8 attacks from 3 pulse lasers. Also, you need to watch out for any psykers with gate of infinity. A seer council with gate of infinity could gate into line of sight turn 1, then throw 9 S9 singing spears at you. Only takes 1 failed save to kill.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to 1 shot kill a T4 assassin too. Just gotta keep that in mind. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Mar 08 2016, 06:01

So you're playing Craftworld Eldar? @BetrayTheWorld

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mika
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Mar 08 2016, 15:21

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Well, she would be pretty effective, I'll give you that. But a single successful S8 hit would instakill her. So if you come up against an opponent with 3 hornets in a squadron with crystal targeting matrix, you'd be pretty well buggered.

They could flat out 30" across the table turn 1 and fire 6 S8 attacks from 3 pulse lasers. Also, you need to watch out for any psykers with gate of infinity. A seer council with gate of infinity could gate into line of sight turn 1, then throw 9 S9 singing spears at you. Only takes 1 failed save to kill.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to 1 shot kill a T4 assassin too. Just gotta keep that in mind. Wink

Sure, but remember also that you can only fire snap shoots at her, and that she can infiltrate anywhere on the table. I'm 95% confident that I can hide one model Wink
I'll probably be also taking a bunker with coms relay to ensure my reserves come on turn two.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Tue Mar 08 2016, 18:15

@CptMetal wrote:
So you're playing Craftworld Eldar? @BetrayTheWorld

I have craftworld eldar, dark eldar, tau, orc, and necron armies. Why?

I was just giving some quick examples of things that could ruin his day off the top of my head. I certainly know eldar and DE best from amongst the factions, and DE don't really have a lot that could threaten his plan on turn 1, outside of a scalpel squadron. So the examples given that could really put a hurt on were CWE.

Sucks doesn't it? Dark Eldar were not given much love in this last codex. It was a boring, flavorless codex that eliminated half our named characters and unnecessarily nerfed half our troops options while adding very little of merit. I'd say that dark eldar have never been in a worse place than they are now, were it not for the ability to ally with CWE. I've not yet stopped mourning the loss of the Duke.


@mika wrote:

Sure, but remember also that you can only fire snap shoots at her, and that she can infiltrate anywhere on the table. I'm 95% confident that I can hide one model

Be aware that statistically speaking, 6 S8 shots fired at her(EVEN AS SNAP SHOTS) results in ~50% chance of her dying. (She only has a 4+ save, and only gets 1 fail.)

Basically, you're quite possibly in trouble against any list that has teleports of any kind, grey knights with their "shunt" moves, any skimmer with a crystal targetting matrix, and all of the turn 1 deep strike lists you might face including:

¤ All drop pod lists.
¤ Skyhammer annihilation force.
¤ The Spear of Sicarius.
¤ Scalpel Squadron
¤ I could list these all day.

The point is, that 1 model will work vs. many armies. It also will definitely not work vs. many other armies. It's not reliable because of the low toughness and low model count. I'm not saying she's a bad idea. She's a good idea. She's just a bad idea alone. It would be better to have a contingency plan.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Mar 10 2016, 04:29

I was lead to believe that all 4 Cult Assassins (Callidus, Eversor, Culexus, Vindicare?) have Eternal Warrior, so getting nicked by a lance isn't the end of the world by any means. I'm about 99% certain that the Vindicare has it, at the very least. Perhaps those are old rules though.

Can anyone confirm which Assassins, if any, do not have the Eternal Warrior special rule?

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Mar 10 2016, 05:50

Just checked my codex. No eternal warrior.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve manipulation shenanagans   Thu Mar 10 2016, 11:28

@Myrvn wrote:
Just checked my codex. No eternal warrior.

Oh really? Thanks for that. Seems I have been deceived by a local Mad

So, perhaps Callidus works if they're light on big guns, but the price of the gamble failing is pretty damn high, as in, you lose the game. I'd be sticking to Scalpel, or Vauls Wrath as BetrayTheWorld describes, were I you.

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