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Razkien
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PostSubject: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 15:06

Hello all,

Does anyone actually like this weapon, or have a story of a time that they really paid off for you? The reason I ask is that I'm finally totally finishing the assembly of my final four Grotesques and I was wondering if I should glue a Liquifier Gun to one or two of them?

Are they ever useful? Does anyone put them into a Grot Bomb, and if so, how many? I used to use the gear somewhat frequently with the last book, but only a couple of times since the newest.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Raz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 15:24

They're awful in my opinion. Overpriced and underpowered. That random chance of getting a decent AP is more than offset by the feeble S3 and the cost of the gun. Plus, if by some miracle you do end up killing something with it you're making your charge distance a little bit longer and risking not getting into combat where you want to be.

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 16:44

As always, very wise words. You make perfect sense.

It's a shame, I used to think they were a fun weapon.

Thanks Count,
Raz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 16:50

When they were 10 points and S4 they were a little pricy but borderline useful and fun. Now, not so much...

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 18:20

Count Adhemar wrote:
When they were 10 points and S4 they were a little pricy but borderline useful and fun. Now, not so much...

considering a flamer is Str4 Ap5 and only 5 points... Sad

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 18:54

I agree, it's always been overpriced.

I did have a few freak moments of awesomeness with it though. It's satisfying when you melt seven Space Wolf Marines with one shot.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 20:16

Oh, I think they are fun. Just a tad too expensive but fun. But I don´t buy them for my Grotesques either, because I want them in close combat...

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 20:30

Yeah, I used to equip my Wrack units with Liq Guns.

The mere fact that they compromise the charge of the Grotesques is probably reason enough alone not to take them.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue Jan 26 2016, 22:37

Count Adhemar wrote:
They're awful in my opinion. Overpriced and underpowered. That random chance of getting a decent AP is more than offset by the feeble S3 and the cost of the gun. Plus, if by some miracle you do end up killing something with it you're making your charge distance a little bit longer and risking not getting into combat where you want to be.

Basically this.

Also, 15pts for S3 is so abysmal that I probably wouldn't use them even if they were guaranteed AP2. Actually, I tell a lie, I *might* use them on a Haemonculus if I had literally nothing else to spend those points on. But, considering Corsairs are now my main force, I'd rather just buy something extra for my Corsair Prince, or a Shimmershield or Psychic Level for a Baron or Void Dreamer.
- I wouldn't use them with Wrakcs because Ossefactors are the same cost (and AP) and vastly more useful.
- I wouldn't use them on Grotesques because they're already expensive and I'd rather have another grotesque (or some other unit) over 2 Liquifier Guns.
- I wouldn't use them on Talos because I'd rather have the extra attack in combat.

I want to like the liquifier gun and I think I can reasonably say that I've given it a fair go. I've tried it on Haemonculi, I've tried it on Wracks, I've tried it in a Dark Artisan for double-flamer goodness with the Cronos, etc. Not once has it done anything even remotely notable. In terms of overwatch it's about as effective as a pancake-dispenser.

The other aspect is that it just doesn't seem to add much to an army. Flamers are admittedly rare, but why spend points on a really crap one? You might as well just get some Medusae - with better strength and guaranteed AP3 - and get the job done properly.

Another point for me is in how I use the army and how Haemonculi have changed. Back in 5th, I often used a cheap Haemonculi HQ and stuck Venom Blades and Liquifer Gun on him for the sake of it (making him 65pts). I'd then put him with a unit of 9 warriors in a splinter rack raider. Nowadays though, I never use splinter rack squads in raiders. And, even if I did, that Haemonculus is now almost 100pts. Not quite the cheap HQ anymore.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Wed Jan 27 2016, 02:28

The Shredder wrote:

it's about as effective as a pancake-dispenser.

I won't lie, this brought a chuckle. It's terribly true as well.

The Shredder wrote:

Flamers are admittedly rare, but why spend points on a really crap one? You might as well just get some Medusae - with better strength and guaranteed AP3 - and get the job done properly.

I agree. They're more reliable than they used to be, and surpass Liquifiers in damage output in almost all circumstances.

Alternatively, get your template guns in the form of allied D Scythes-toting Wraithguard. Oh your flamer is ap5? That's pretty cute.. It's not exactly cheap though.

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SaturdayNightWrist
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Sat Jan 30 2016, 04:05

Only time I've really used them is when taking a scalpel squadron, to give myself the most chance of getting first blood. Usually picking a weak target where the strength 3 isn't as much a burden.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Sun Jan 31 2016, 18:37

I have it on Talos. Like how it looks, but never use it )

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Nyx_Necrodragon
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue May 31 2016, 00:02

I agree, perhaps they were good once upon a time but now you might as well be shooting a water pistol.

I have one on my talos for looks only, I'd much prefer an ossefactor on it.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue May 31 2016, 00:49

hydranixx wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

Flamers are admittedly rare, but why spend points on a really crap one? You might as well just get some Medusae - with better strength and guaranteed AP3 - and get the job done properly.

I agree. They're more reliable than they used to be, and surpass Liquifiers in damage output in almost all circumstances.

The real kicker is that they S4 AP3 Eyeburst is basically the same cost as the S3 APd6 liquifier... 17 points on top of a basic Kabalite gives you +1 Ld and Eyeburst. 15 points on top of a Wrack gives you the vastly inferior Liquifier and one less attack in combat. Yay?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue May 31 2016, 05:33

Medusae are better in combat than a wrack? O.o

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue May 31 2016, 11:55

CptMetal wrote:
Medusae are better in combat than a wrack? O.o

Well, a Medusae has 1 S3 attack. A Wrack with a Liquifier Gun has 1 S3 Poison attack.

The Wrack is technically better, though not by much. It's also a little tougher, so there's that.

Personally though, I'd much rather have a good shooting attack and just accept that I'm horrible in melee. Razz
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Tue May 31 2016, 12:04

Ah. I forgot that a wrack with Liquifier forgoes his additional attack due to two Close Combat weapons.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Guns   Wed Jun 01 2016, 01:29

CptMetal wrote:
Medusae are better in combat than a wrack? O.o

To be clear, I'm not comparing Medusae to Wracks overall, just the cost of the template upgrade.

The Wrack with liquifier is 25 points, consisting of 10 points base plus 15 points of liquifier. The Medusa is 25 points, with an implied breakdown of 8 points for the Kabalite statline and armour, and 17 points for Eyeburst and +1 Ld.

For a very similar priced upgrade, the Wrack gets S3 APd6 and one less melee weapon. The Medusa gets S4 AP3 and +1 Ld. Clearly there is a larger disparity between the effectiveness of these two upgrades than the 2 points difference indicates. Just another example of wonky internal balance that our Codex authors didn't pick up on.

Whether the Medusa is also overcosted or externally balanced I leave as an exercise for the reader Smile
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