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 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!

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Saldoravia
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PostSubject: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Mon Jan 25 2016, 16:30

Hey guys, I need some assistance/opinions on my list.

This is my first ever 40k list so.. Ive done some research and
this is what I've got so far:

Archon - WWP + Blaster

6 Kabalites - Venom + Blaster
6 Kabalites - Venom + Blaster
6 Kabalites - Venom + Blaster
6 Kabalites - Venom + Blaster

1 Raider - Dark Lance + Nightshield
5 Scourges - Heat Lances (#4)

Harlies-Cast of Players-

Shadow Seer - Lvl 2 + HWG + Mask of Secrets
Death Jester - HWG
8 Troupe - Kisses (#7)

The idea was for the Archon to deep-strike with the scourges and the Harlequins to jump in a raider.
A few possible ideas I was having was to take another
Cast of Players formation (not sure if even legal?) Or swap 1/2 warriors for BlasterBorn.
Not Sure where else to take the list, Maybe some Dire Avengers and Farseer in a raider..
Any tips to make this a well rounded list?
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BlackHeart73
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Mon Jan 25 2016, 18:02

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but venoms only have a transport capacity of 5.

Also, there are a few things I'd tweak about this list, the main thing being how expensive the Harley unit is. Harlequins are good, and your opponent will probably know this, which means this unit is going to have a huge target on their back. Another issue with the squad is at this point cost, they have to be particular about what squad they attack. If it is a cheaper/vanilla space marine squad for instance, they will rip through it and be left in the open, waiting for enemy fire. This is a problem as they don't have the best save and a fair volume of shots will wipe them out quite easily. On the other hand, if you run this into a large points cost squad, one with a librarian or some sort of HQ/character in it for example, which model will fight challenges AND win them? None of the options here are all that great for fighting challenges and you have 200 pts invested into characters alone... I would strip this squad of all its fancy toys (even the Mstry Lvl 2). No upgrades on this squad = 80pts to spend elsewhere, however, the upgrade that might be worth keeping is the 7 kisses. @ 35 pts for x7 str6 ap2 attacks is unreal. So keeping the kisses, you're still left with 40pts. I would spend it on a unit of 5 kabalites that can sit in the back and hold an objective.

I would probably give the scouges haywire blasters instead and NOT put the archon with them. I's probably throw a squad of incubi in one of the venoms too.

This being your first list, I understand wanting to upgrade everything to make it better, but it is not always worth the points. I believe that the dark eldar army's advantage is volume of units and ability to tie up your opponents unit for several turns. For instance, if you're opponent pays for, lets say a unit of 5 tau stealth suits and you run a unit of 10 wyches into it, about 2-3 wyches will die on the charge, but the rest will keep that unit of suits busy for a couple turns. Even if the wyches lose the combat, they just stole turns in which the suits could have been harassing/capping an objective from your opponent. That is also to say that the unit of wyches cost you 100 pts and their unit was 150 pts. Now, this is just an example, but I have found that this is where the DE shines, so I would get some more units into your list and keep points lower than you probably would like, and you would be surprised at how overwhelming a list you could make.

Hope this helps!

-BK73
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Mon Jan 25 2016, 18:42

You can put 5 dudes into a venom and one of them is carrying the Blaster of course.

I can´t comment on the Harlequin though because I don´t own them.

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Saldoravia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Tue Jan 26 2016, 03:46

-Bk73

Thank you so much for your input!!
Firstly I don't know how I made that mistake with the venoms capacity!

With the harlequins I understand exactly where your coming from they are soo expensive, but feel so fragile.. How would you priorities targets for them? The idea was to deepstrike them and get them in CC or possibly because the addition of HWG maybe pop a transport and charge on the next turn.. if the quins survive

About Wyches do they have to be in a transport or can they foot slog it? I have 10 of them as well as Incubi and Mandrakes.. from what I've read mandrakes are either a really good hit or miss depending on the opposition. Incubi are ofcourse well known but I was wondering what the main target of the Incubi are? Especially with just 1 small unit.. charge TeQ's?

And about the Scourges I gave them Heat Lances because of the Strength 6 ap 1 is also good other things asides from vehicles where obviously haywire are better against vehicles they aren't good against much else..

Ok do I've changed my list to include

5 Incubi + Venom
2 Units of 5 Blasterborn + Venom
10 Warriors + S cannon + Raider (with splinter racks)

I'm still unsure what to do with Archon if he isn't with the Scourges..

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Saldoravia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Tue Jan 26 2016, 03:49

I have about 400 pts to play with to reach 1850pts
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BlackHeart73
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Tue Jan 26 2016, 18:44

Saldoravia

To your first point, yeah, Harlequins are a bit difficult (as far as knowing where they fit in a list). I have been playing much smaller point games as of late, and I don't think a detachment of them would work well (for my list, at least) in the 500-750 pts range. However, if you have an extra 400 pts to work with, then they may be fine, but my philosophy still stands for DE: "the cheaper, the better" (in almost any case).

The wyches can footslog if you want, the only drawback of this is that when your boats zoom up to the enemy, the wyches will still be running up. This not only defeats the purpose of having them attack and tie up a unit early in the game, but it also leaves them exposed to enemy fire, which is the wyches biggest weakness. If your opponent knows anything about wyches and you have them footslogging up the board, he will kill the unit outright with little effort. This is just what I've experienced in past matches.

As far as the incubi, get them into CC with troop units. I run (in my smaller 500pt list) 3 incubi in a venom with a haemonculus (+Armor of Mis & Flesh Gauntlet). Most times the Haeme won't win challenges, but after the incubi clean up a tac squad (or whatever squad I may be facing) they lay the hurt on the enemy challenger, and the enemy unit goes bye-bye. They are a good hitman squad, though I don't know if I'd take them to specifically use against termies (you could, they'll just be much less survivable if they don't wipe the terminators out during the first assault phase).

As for the Archon, I'd take off the WWP and blaster, and throw on a huskblade, clone-field OR shadowfield, and a Sould Trap. I would fly him in the venom with 4 incubi and basically have them target units with characters so that he can challenge, win the challenge and find another unit to kill. Just remember what I said about the incubi survivability, and be cautious of anything with a str 6 or greater, bc there is not a good chance you'll win those encounters.

(Side Note: The key to DE strategy IMO) If you have read the fluff (I've only read a little bit of it), the dark elder are fast. The fact that a fast attack unit is compulsory is an indication that speed is a staple of the army as well. SPEED. That's where they excel, and if taken full advantage of, speed is what you will be able to use to burry your opponent deeper than he/she expected. The speed of the army is a two-fold advantage, not only can you close the gap on your opponent quickly, but he will be pressured by this army much more than any other in the game. When 3-6 venoms/boats roll over to his/her side of the board turn 1, he will have to decide what to shoot at/assault. By turn 2, whatever he hasn't destroyed yet, will be able to attack, and if you are keeping things cheap, unless you're playing against a hoard army, you should be able to outnumber him/her in number of units. These units that aren't in CC can move on the board putting pressure on his forces and also capping objectives if needed. The best thing about DE in CC is they can totally rid your opponent of the shooting phase (aside from some tanks that may be sitting in the backfield or units with the Hit & Run SR). So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is, that if you can overwhelm your opponent, you can win. (granted you will have to know what units in the DE army can go up against whatever units your opponent throws at you, but that's just a matter of playing and finding out).

-BK73
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pt DE/Harlequins !!Help!!   Wed Jan 27 2016, 04:28

I'll chime in here and give you both some feedback on your choices and arguments.

Saldoravia wrote:

5 Incubi + Venom
2 Units of 5 Blasterborn + Venom
10 Warriors + S cannon + Raider (with splinter racks)


This is looking better already. You should consider dropping the Splinter Cannon, because Salvo weapons halve their range and barely fire more than the Splinter rifle, if they move. You can free up 15 points this way, or use it to buy their raider Night Shields which is good for their longevity.

Saldoravia wrote:

I'm still unsure what to do with Archon if he isn't with the Scourges..


In my experience, playing with only Dark Eldar, there's two options:

- Play him with a deepstriking Court of the Archon in a venom or raider with 2-3 Medusae to eat any infantry you find. Add 4 Sslyth if you have 100 points spare and want a difficult unit to remove (majority T5, 2 wounds apiece, FnP etc). Keep the WWP, but otherwise keep him relatively inexpensive. A blaster and/or haywire nades (remember you can throw them with his BS7) are enough to help out against tanks.

- Don't play him at all. He's so weak outside of providing WWP plays that he's not worth stacking up to make him a worthwhile combatant.

Saldoravia wrote:

About Wyches do they have to be in a transport or can they foot slog it?

They have to stay on your shelf, I'm sorry to say. They're just terribly weak. If you really want to play them, they can do 'Ok" holding up Super Elite units like Terminators, but then you have to include a raider with survivability upgrades for them, and manage to hide them until needed. They die so unbelievably fast even to Lasguns. They also eat overwatch fire from anything they want to fight, which usually accounts for 1/3rd of the squad before they even get to attack.

BlackHeart73 wrote:

For instance, if you're opponent pays for, lets say a unit of 5 tau stealth suits and you run a unit of 10 wyches into it, about 2-3 wyches will die on the charge

This is true, but Wyches are never worth it anymore, so I feel like they're a bad example. There's not much in our army that can stall enemies anymore. Our combat units either completely stomp their opponents if they're against targets they like (Grotesques and Incubi come to mind) or are decisively beaten and die in droves because we're T3. Even Tau stealth teams wound us on 3's.

Wyches are in fact are the most flimsy troop choice in the game. They aren't even decisively better than Guardsmen in combat - both S/T 3 - while costing twice the price, with no ranged firepower, and unable to get any worthwhile special rules till super late game.

Saldoravia was right to include a list with no Wyches.

BlackHeart73 wrote:

As for the Archon, I'd take off the WWP and blaster, and throw on a huskblade, clone-field OR shadowfield, and a Sould Trap. I would fly him in the venom with 4 incubi and basically have them target units with characters so that he can challenge, win the challenge and find another unit to kill.

I do not recommend this at all. Its 140+ points for an HQ choice that can't kill anything. Your opponent can duck out of any challenge he won't win, leaving the soul trap useless, and any decent character or monster with a 2+ save or T5+ will eat your Archon for breakfast. Instant Death seems so cool, but when it costs 35 points, and you're strength 3, and you can't even break Terminator armour... Yeah... Huskblades are awful at the moment.

The exception to this, ironically, is the Blaster Archon that Saldoravia already included. BS7 does wonders with Strength 8 AP2.

BlackHeart73 wrote:

Harlequins are good, and your opponent will probably know this, which means this unit is going to have a huge target on their back.


Yes, this is right. Avoid sinking too many points into a combat unit, because it will either die horribly when they focus it down, or do its job TOO well, and then get shot to bits in the enemies turn when they realise how scary it is. This applies even more so to Incubi than Harlequins.

Speaking of, play Incubi in small units of 4 - 6 in a Venom or Raider, hunting small units of Terminators or squads of marines. Be patience with them; charging too early, or at the wrong target, or through cover will see them die instantly and cost you your only combat unit(s). On the other hand, late game Incubi are no joke, with Furious Charge, Rage and Fearless. They become ruthlessly strong at eating anything T4 or under.

I guess the haemonculus gets them there 'earlier' with his special rule, but he lacks fleet, and thus slows them down, and costs a lot of points. I would never play one outside of the Covens supplement, and even then, only grudgingly.

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