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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 10:04

@hydranixx wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
99% of the time
I'm certain this is quite the exaggeration, but I know what you mean.

I only wish it was.

@hydranixx wrote:

@The Shredder wrote:
Only glances the target
Suspiciously exactly the same as haywire.

But haywire glances the target on 2s (whereas Dark Lances usually need 4s). More importantly, Haywire doesn't need to penetrate the target.

@hydranixx wrote:

@The Shredder wrote:
- Glances the target but it basses its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
- Penetrates but the target passes its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
We can't really compete with invulnerable saves, I know. As for cover, we're skimmers so we can 'usually' move enough to deny them a save this way, short of smoke launchers etc. Jink saves are annoying, but kinda play into our favour, as their skimmer now can't shoot accurately enough to kill ours.

Sorry but how does a 6" move help the Ravager get around a massive ruin? or to the other side of the board so that it can completely see a vehicle behind a terrain piece? Or against a vehicle that's in the terrain piece? Or really do anything to negate cover?

@hydranixx wrote:

The rest of the pen results you're so disappointed to see apply to any faction shooting at armour, so its not something our lances are uniquely terrible at - with the exception of lacking ap1 of course.

Except that other races typically aren't relying on a measly 3 shots that are crap at penetrating and crap at exploding vehicles, yet paradoxically rely on just that to be worthwhile.

Other races are either using high-volume S6-7 or Grav (which, like haywire, doesn't care about penetrating) or else stuff like meltaguns or D-weapons (the former are AP1, the latter usually do d3 hull points and a penetrating hit, but can also destroy vehicles outright if they roll a 6 to penetrate). To put it another way, their weapons are actually suited to their goals.

@hydranixx wrote:

Vehicles which ignore shaken/stunned trolls everyone except multiple meltagun squads.

Can we have some of those?

@hydranixx wrote:
In those circumstances, say, a daemonic possession vehicle, yeah our haywire is a much better option.
But its a terrible idea relying solely on haywire guns.

It's a terrible idea to rely on *any* of our anti-vehicle weapons. Dark Lances and Blasters are overpriced, 'worst of both worlds' weapons. Haywire blasters are good, but only available on a unit that dies to a stiff breeze. And Heat-Lances are meltas-1 for no adequately explored reason.
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 10:13

@The Shredder wrote:
And Heat-Lances are meltas-1 for no adequately explored reason.

Meltas-2 would be more accurate. I'm curious what your favorite anti-tank solution in a pure DE list is. Deepstriking meltascourge?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 10:21

Honestly, I've yet to find one.

The closest answer I have is to fill FA and HS with anti-tank options - preferably including both multiple scourges and multiple Reaver units (probably using 2 CADs or RSRs,if only for the extra FA slots), and basically take every other anti-tank weapon possible elsewhere in the list.

Far from an ideal solution but it's all I have.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 10:44

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

@The Shredder wrote:
Only glances the target
Suspiciously exactly the same as haywire.

But haywire glances the target on 2s (whereas Dark Lances usually need 4s). More importantly, Haywire doesn't need to penetrate the target.

And neither does the lance. We need not even hit all the time. Instant Deathing 2 Crisis suits or forcing jink saves on jetbikes and skimmers is good enough to warrant going to the next unit.

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

@The Shredder wrote:
- Glances the target but it basses its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
- Penetrates but the target passes its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
We can't really compete with invulnerable saves, I know. As for cover, we're skimmers so we can 'usually' move enough to deny them a save this way, short of smoke launchers etc. Jink saves are annoying, but kinda play into our favour, as their skimmer now can't shoot accurately enough to kill ours.

Sorry but how does a 6" move help the Ravager get around a massive ruin? or to the other side of the board so that it can completely see a vehicle behind a terrain piece? Or against a vehicle that's in the terrain piece? Or really do anything to negate cover?

Well, for starters we ignore any terrain for the purposes of flying over it, and can even land in impassable terrain so long as we take a difficult terrain test and can place the base up there. Not to mention we can go 12" and fire 2 lances and snap a 3rd if we decide it's the better play.

If its hidden behind, as you say, a massive ruin the size of a small country, yeah we're not seeing it any time soon. However, chances are it isn't seeing us either; if it's artillery it's going to blind fire and likely scatter so far off its not a threat. So we're looking once more at the "shoot what we need to shoot to, stop it fighting back, and move on" mentality.

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

The rest of the pen results you're so disappointed to see apply to any faction shooting at armour, so its not something our lances are uniquely terrible at - with the exception of lacking ap1 of course.

Except that other races typically aren't relying on a measly 3 shots that are crap at penetrating and crap at exploding vehicles, yet paradoxically rely on just that to be worthwhile.

Other races are either using high-volume S6-7 or Grav (which, like haywire, doesn't care about penetrating) or else stuff like meltaguns or D-weapons (the former are AP1, the latter usually do d3 hull points and a penetrating hit, but can also destroy vehicles outright if they roll a 6 to penetrate). To put it another way, their weapons are actually suited to their goals.

It seems as if you've reached a dire conclusion that our anti tank weapons are not suited to their goals because Dark Lances are terrible, Heat Lances are terrible, Haywire blasters are good, but only available on a unit that dies to a stiff breeze, and other races have better options.

I'm assuming this means we shouldn't use Dark Eldar anti armour. Because there's better options elsewhere, in other armies.

Do you propose we use close combat, or ignore their vehicles entirely, or pick another race?

I'm genuinely curious Shredder, what exactly about Dark Eldar even keeps you playing them as an army? Or is it more a case that you play other armies, and come back here to remind yourself why you stopped playing this one haha?

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

Vehicles which ignore shaken/stunned trolls everyone except multiple meltagun squads.

Can we have some of those?

We do have them good sir, the best in the game. Step right up and get yours today. You play Corsairs more than DE now anyway, which have multiple meltagun squads for troop choices, not to mention these downright beautiful fire dragons right here. Record prices good sir.

@The Shredder wrote:

Honestly, I've yet to find one.

You're not actually playing mono DE are you? Bring the dragons if you feel DE doesn't offer enough anti tank firepower. They love our Archons and Raiders. In 7th, we are Codex: Eldar Taxi Service.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 11:30

@hydranixx wrote:

And neither does the lance. We need not even hit all the time. Instant Deathing 2 Crisis suits or forcing jink saves on jetbikes and skimmers is good enough to warrant going to the next unit.

Eh?

How does that relate in any way to using Dark Lances to disable vehicles?

@hydranixx wrote:

Well, for starters we ignore any terrain for the purposes of flying over it, and can even land in impassable terrain so long as we take a difficult terrain test and can place the base up there. Not to mention we can go 12" and fire 2 lances and snap a 3rd if we decide it's the better play.

But flying over terrain next to us does nothing when the opponent is behind terrain further away. And, let's be honest here, trading firepower for movement really isn't a good deal for a shooting platform.

@hydranixx wrote:

If its hidden behind, as you say, a massive ruin the size of a small country, yeah we're not seeing it any time soon. However, chances are it isn't seeing us either; if it's artillery it's going to blind fire and likely scatter so far off its not a threat. So we're looking once more at the "shoot what we need to shoot to, stop it fighting back, and move on" mentality.

It can still potentially see though windows or damaged parts of said ruin.

@hydranixx wrote:

It seems as if you've reached a dire conclusion that our anti tank weapons are not suited to their goals because Dark Lances are terrible, Heat Lances are terrible, Haywire blasters are good, but only available on a unit that dies to a stiff breeze, and other races have better options.

I'm assuming this means we shouldn't use Dark Eldar anti armour. Because there's better options elsewhere, in other armies.

Actually, my original point was just that I wouldn't use Dark Lances for the purposes of disabling a vehicle because it's the equivilent of including 3 Lasguns as anti-centurion firepower.

@hydranixx wrote:

I'm genuinely curious Shredder, what exactly about Dark Eldar even keeps you playing them as an army? Or is it more a case that you play other armies, and come back here to remind yourself why you stopped playing this one haha?

Well, since you've asked, I'm in the process of converting most of my DE into corsairs. My Scourges are now balestrikes. My Jetbikesare now Cloud Dancers, my Hellions will either be Jetbike Barons or else cannibalised to make Jet Packs (already done this for 5 WIP Malevolents). And my Venoms... well they're still Venoms but now a different kind of Venom. Wink

If I use DE at all, it will be as allies for my Corsairs - probably to get me some Grotesques (since I'd like to still use my converted models).

In terms of other armies, I have Necrons but I haven't enjoyed them since the new codex hit. They're very strong (in fact my Decurion lists have yet to lose a game), but I just find their mechanics rather tedious. I'm also well aware that they're not fun to play against.

I also have IG, which I haven't used in ages and regret ever buying.

I still come here because I have fond memories of when DE used to be a fun army with decent rules, and dare to hope that someday they'll return to being such. I also still like the aesthetics and have sunk a lot of time into conversions. I'm just constantly let down by the actual rules.

@hydranixx wrote:

We do have them good sir, the best in the game. Step right up and get yours today. You play Corsairs more than DE now anyway, which have multiple meltagun squads for troop choices, not to mention these downright beautiful fire dragons right here. Record prices good sir.

I meant in terms of pure DE. If we're talking in terms of allies, DE have the best anti-tank in the game. Razz

@hydranixx wrote:

You're not actually playing mono DE are you?

I was. For a very long time I did just play mono DE. I did it because DE was the army I wanted to play - nor Eldar or Harlequins or some other army. Even as we slid further and further down the power curve, I still refused to use allies. Then along came Corsairs. Suddenly, I could play the DE army I'd always wanted to. Suddenly my HQs had fun abilities, jetbikes and good melee weapons. Suddenly my anti-tank had more impact than a party-popper. Suddenly my troops were more than just venom-taxes, and I could have them on Jetbikes or with Jet Packs. Suddenly my units actually felt fast.

I moved to Corsairs because they encompassed everything I wanted out of DE, but which the DE book entirely failed to deliver.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 14:49

Do you remember when this thread was about reapers and not complaining about how bad DE are? Pepperidge farm remember.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 21:39

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

I'm genuinely curious Shredder, what exactly about Dark Eldar even keeps you playing them as an army? Or is it more a case that you play other armies, and come back here to remind yourself why you stopped playing this one haha?

Well, since you've asked, I'm in the process of converting most of my DE into corsairs. My Scourges are now balestrikes. My Jetbikesare now Cloud Dancers, my Hellions will either be Jetbike Barons or else cannibalised to make Jet Packs (already done this for 5 WIP Malevolents). And my Venoms... well they're still Venoms but now a different kind of Venom. Wink

If I use DE at all, it will be as allies for my Corsairs - probably to get me some Grotesques (since I'd like to still use my converted models).

I also have IG, which I haven't used in ages and regret ever buying.

I still come here because I have fond memories of when DE used to be a fun army with decent rules, and dare to hope that someday they'll return to being such. I also still like the aesthetics and have sunk a lot of time into conversions. I'm just constantly let down by the actual rules.

I can relate to that, it sucks that Dark Eldar are so pretty, and so sinister and yet very subpar on the battlefield.

You've given me much to think on though - I can see you've had more experience in the hobby, and with Dark Eldar in particular, than me - perhaps things are more dire for the True Kin that I want to let myself believe. Having realists around, like yourself, doling out the facts is healthy.

@The Shredder wrote:
@hydranixx wrote:

You're not actually playing mono DE are you?

I was. For a very long time I did just play mono DE. I did it because DE was the army I wanted to play - nor Eldar or Harlequins or some other army. Even as we slid further and further down the power curve, I still refused to use allies. Then along came Corsairs. Suddenly, I could play the DE army I'd always wanted to. Suddenly my HQs had fun abilities, jetbikes and good melee weapons. Suddenly my anti-tank had more impact than a party-popper. Suddenly my troops were more than just venom-taxes, and I could have them on Jetbikes or with Jet Packs. Suddenly my units actually felt fast.

I moved to Corsairs because they encompassed everything I wanted out of DE, but which the DE book entirely failed to deliver.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier - you've given me much food for thought. I'm looking towards building corsairs now myself. I always had a soft spot for Hornets and Wasps anyway, even if they're not the stars of the army.

You've been heartily discussing tactics and such elsewhere, so I won't pose those questions to you here.


@dumpeal wrote:

Do you remember when this thread was about reapers and not complaining about how bad DE are? Pepperidge farm remember.

Well played sir.

You are indeed correct, my apologies.

Reapers were the main focus of this debate, and I still believe that they're good.

At least as far as Dark Eldar goes, that is. They'll probably never be great at their current exorbitant price tag and with only a single BS4 shot.

I wonder what a reaper would look like with a small price discount, and some kind of mechanism that improves the accuracy of its main weapon.

Perhaps along the lines of:

A single shot weapon that can always be fired in addition to the main cannon, rolling to hit first. If it hits a target with an armour value, the Reaper's main weapon gets twin-linked this shooting phase, and the target cannot take cover saves.

Or a single shot weapon that can always be fired in addition to the main cannon, rolling to hit first. If it hits a target with an armour value, all weapons with the haywire special rule re roll missed hits when shooting at it this turn.

Reminiscent of the titan hunter Ravager squadron I suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 21:53

Don't bother. It will always come to whining, no matter the topic:

What about talos? Oh, Dark Eldar suck

How do you use the supplement? Dark Eldar really suck

I do like Haywire weapons, what about you guys? Dark Eldar suck and you should stop playing those and use another army instead, as I do.


Boring.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 22:05

@CptMetal wrote:
How do you use the supplement? Dark Eldar really suck.

I reckon our supplement is pretty rock solid actually. At least half of our formations there are playable, depending on what one is doing.

You're right though - the anti Dark Eldar mentality probably belongs somewhere that is not in fact a Dark Eldar forum.

Again, we do digress.
The reaper, people, the reaper.

It would be quite a laugh the gun had a rule where if you roll a 6 to hit, it counts as Strength 8 AP 1. Or simply if it were both the Haywire and Lance special rules.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 22:23

Personally, I'm rather dubious about the Reaper. For a single-shot weapon I'd want something more impressive.

@hydranixx wrote:

Reapers were the main focus of this debate, and I still believe that they're good.

At least as far as Dark Eldar goes, that is. They'll probably never be great at their current exorbitant price tag and with only a single BS4 shot.

I wonder what a reaper would look like with a small price discount, and some kind of mechanism that improves the accuracy of its main weapon.

Perhaps along the lines of:

A single shot weapon that can always be fired in addition to the main cannon, rolling to hit first. If it hits a target with an armour value, the Reaper's main weapon gets twin-linked this shooting phase, and the target cannot take cover saves.

Or a single shot weapon that can always be fired in addition to the main cannon, rolling to hit first. If it hits a target with an armour value, all weapons with the haywire special rule re roll missed hits when shooting at it this turn.

Reminiscent of the titan hunter Ravager squadron I suppose.

Alternatively, what if the main weapon (in its non-blast form) was d3 shots? As opposed to a single shots that does d3 haywire hits.

@CptMetal wrote:
Don't bother. It will always come to whining, no matter the topic:

What about talos? Oh, Dark Eldar suck

How do you use the supplement? Dark Eldar really suck

I do like Haywire weapons, what about you guys? Dark Eldar suck and you should stop playing those and use another army instead, as I do.


Boring.

Almost as boring as people whining about any and all legitimate complaints towards the DE rules. As if denying problems will somehow make them go away.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 02:21

@The Shredder wrote:
Personally, I'm rather dubious about the Reaper. For a single-shot weapon I'd want something more impressive.

I agree. It needs greater power and/or accuracy if its sitting with only one weapon.

A fair comparison would be a Vindicator. They're less mobile and a bit slower, but they're harder to kill, cheaper, and have access to formations.

They can can eat an entire squad of centurions or Grotesques in one go and are undoubtedly more scary.

@The Shredder wrote:

Alternatively, what if the main weapon (in its non-blast form) was d3 shots? As opposed to a single shots that does d3 haywire hits.

I like this idea, provided each shot retains the current Strength 7 AP 3 profile.

Would each individual hit also apply the special haywire rule on its own, or would we just make one additional roll on the special haywire chart after all d3 shots have been worked out, provided at least 1 hits?

It would provide us with a long sought after mid strength high volume of shots weapon, and make Autocannons look like a push over.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 04:02

When 7th edition come and the Ravager got a price increase, I thought it was the right time to replace them with Reapers, but I was really let down when I did the mathhammer.

I might have made a miscalculation (so can somebody double check?), but average shooting against AV12, Lances score 1 hit while the Storm Vortex Projector kills 1.111.

So, Lances "outperform" the SVP on AV10 + AV11 for lower cost.
Also I see Lances causing ID way more often.

And the way the weapon works is just too... impractical. Hitting a target in the first place is not a sure thing, but the d3 haywire makes it even more inconsistent. D3 individual shots would make this unit more consistent, but still inferior.

Oh and don't hope to cause any serious effect on the vehicle damage table...

I really don't see anything speaking for the Reaper. I see it more like a sloppy cousin of the Ravager with moody Haywire Blasters.

I could see this unit potentially being useful if it shot 3 normal haywire shots... but then it raises the question why the Ravager doesn't have the option to field 3 Haywire Blasters to begin with.


I think this unit would need something more which is outside of firepower. Something like super-long range, good chance to immobilize targets, maybe let it hit targets inside transports or give it the "Beam" rule.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 04:36

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think this unit would need something more which is outside of firepower. Something like super-long range, good chance to immobilize targets, maybe let it hit targets inside transports or give it the "Beam" rule.

Now we're talking, these all seem like nifty ideas.

If it hit only one vehicle, it would be cool if any unit inside took more damage based on how well armoured it was - a base Strength of 3, + 1 for every armour point over 10 the vehicle's best armour is.

So a tact squad in a rhino would take a, perhaps d3/d6? strength 4 hits, whereas a landraider unit would take d3/d6? strength 7 hits.

The beam idea is a nice addition, but I'm not sure it really suits the gun itself. It would make more sense if the attack was simple always a large blast template - capable of screwing over multiple vehicles in one hit if they cluster together.

Even just adding on crew shaken result to any glancing hit and we're in business.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 05:28

Oh I have to say I really like our supplement. There's really good stuff in it. It's just that certain people are always complaining no matter what topic the thread is about. I bet it's not really good of a mentality to get curious new players to play the true kin.

@The Shredder I really think you are a good player. You are smart and you know what you are talking about. I just don't get your hate anymore. If I recall correctly you are now a major corsair player so I don't get your problem. It's so negative, it can't be fun for you anymore. Or do you try to make all of us play corsair too? Have you thought of joining a corsair forum and making fun of the true kin there?

At the beginning I thought there would be solutions coming for the big problems or our kind but instead I don't see tactic advice only wish listing. It's so much that a new players first post here was a mock up of this situation!

That's sad man. Again, it's not just you and I think you're a smart player and in most cases you're right (even if we don't agree with the solutions most of the time) but what would really be helpful, like tactics instead of wish listing, is not enough.

Perhaps I'll have to do such a thread. I'm going to try if my true born let's me write something.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 10:08

@CptMetal wrote:

@The Shredder I really think you are a good player. You are smart and you know what you are talking about. I just don't get your hate anymore. If I recall correctly you are now a major corsair player so I don't get your problem.

Well, I'm still rather sad that Corsairs are better Dark Eldar than Dark Eldar. Neutral

I mean, I also play Necrons - so I practically have an instant-win button on hand at all times. Doesn't mean I don't want DE to be good as well.

@CptMetal wrote:
It's so negative, it can't be fun for you anymore. Or do you try to make all of us play corsair too? Have you thought of joining a corsair forum and making fun of the true kin there?

As fas as I'm aware, there isn't a Corsair forum. Unless you know of one?

@CptMetal wrote:

At the beginning I thought there would be solutions coming for the big problems or our kind but instead I don't see tactic advice only wish listing. It's so much that a new players first post here was a mock up of this situation!

That's sad man. Again, it's not just you and I think you're a smart player and in most cases you're right (even if we don't agree with the solutions most of the time) but what would really be helpful, like tactics instead of wish listing, is not enough.

Sorry. Surprising as it might sound though, I really don't enjoy saying DE sucks. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever to have to say that Units A-G are overpriced garbage, or upgrades J-X might as well be toast racks. Especially when they're units or upgrades I really want to like.

But, I'll try to offer more tactical advice in addition to my rants.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 19:40

Well the plan is (though expensive money and points wise) is to run 3 in my lists plus 2 units of haywire scourge. That is a ton of hay wire and could cause massive problems. Or I could just stick to wwp and aspect host of dragons X 3 that ensures vehicles to die even imperial Knights. But I'm trying my best to come up with something close to as strong so that I can be pure de in tournaments
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 22:13

Cool, look forward to hearing how it works out for you. If you're running that many, consider sticking Armor of Misery on an HQ or taking a Coven formation or two so you can get more mileage out of those Pinning checks the Reaper can cause, too.

Going with any lances at all or are you planning on glancing everything to death?
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Fri Jan 29 2016, 23:45

@MHaruspex wrote:
If you're running that many, consider sticking Armor of Misery on an HQ or taking a Coven formation or two so you can get more mileage out of those Pinning checks the Reaper can cause, too.

If you go down this route be careful the blasts don't clip your HQ lol. Its only 6" range for the Armour of Misery. Covens seems like a more robust option, but might pull the list in an entirely new direction as the formations aren't cheap.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Sat Jan 30 2016, 01:26

I haven't ordered anything from Forge World so far, but the Reaper will definitely be the first thing when the time comes.

To me, the Reaper is pretty much a cruiserweight version of the 6th edition's Wave Serpent: Less robust, but faster and hitting just as hard under the right conditions.
What sells me on the Reaper is its versatility, something that I always thought should be a Dark Eldar advantage over the Craftworlders' linear path thing. It can kill vehicles (and yes, of course we do have better options for that), but it can also kill and, perhaps more importantly, pin infantry. After all; pinning prevents overwatch, something our melee units tend to have trouble with. And we have ways to make that more reliable through leadership shenanigans too.
So I wouldn't run a Reaper as a key tank hunter, but rather as a supporter for other tank hunters and assault squads as well, wherever which of its weapon settings helps doing the most damage, not to a specific unit, but to the opponent's whole army and battle plan.

Weaken the enemy, hit them where it hurts the most, then bring them down - that's Dark Eldar synergy how it should be!
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