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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 07:08

Does anyone use the forge world reaper? It looks awesome and can cause up to 4 hull points potentially if you're lucky. Why? Or why not?
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 10:08

I used it a lot. Have a conversion from raider.

Well, it`s fine. Most will say, that Ravager is better in all ways, but i think it`s all up to dices. We had local tournament once and my Reaper did not hit ONCE. But in apocaliptic game he did rock indeed, while ravagers did nothing at all.
His nice part is 11 armor and D3 haywire hits. That means you can get a total of 4 hits on enemy vehicle. One with str 7 and up to three hywire. And this shot can kill monsters as well (did it once on a daemon prince).

So its basicaaly fine. Perhaps a little overpriced. I think 130 pts would be more than enouth

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 10:18

It's very good but very dice dependent. If you miss with the gun more often than not you'll think it's a waste of points but if you hit frequently you'll think it's amazing.

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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 12:07

Its main competitors are Ravagers and Scourge, so let's try to compare the three:

Ravagers have lances, so they do the least amount of damage to hull points but are most likely to score penetrating hits - very important if you need to, say, stop a Vindicator from shooting. Another thing to note with Ravagers is that they snapfire one lance if you move over 6".

Scourge strip the most hull points relative to their cost - but are comparatively short ranged, with only 24" of shooting. T3 models aren't renowned for their survivability either. But, they can move 12" and shoot at full power. 20/9 hull points a turn on average from Haywire is nothing to scoff at. In theory they can assault too (occasionally relevant), but they're also the least effective of the three against non-vehicle targets.

Reapers are really a mix of the two - can move 12", and strip 10/9HP a turn average through Haywire (plus more for the S7 hit, which is also more likely to penetrate than Scourge are). 36" range is very helpful too. S5 AP4 large blasts are great against Guardsmen or Fire Warriors, and the pinning is great too - if you run one of those Freakshow lists, it makes for some nice versatility. Instant Death on 5+ can be useful against MCs without 2+ saves - moreso if you run allied Farseers for Doom or something. Only one of the three that can't deep strike, though I don't personally see that as being relevant.

Personally, I'm a Scourge guy. I run a few lance Raiders in case I need to pen something and stop it from shooting that way so have that covered, and feel like I have enough threat saturation to make the Scourge reasonably survivable - especially through Reavers. If I ran fewer units though - Warriors in Raiders over Venoms, for example, I'd want to go with the Reaper over the Scourge because of its ability to stay further away. Same if I didn't run Reavers - presenting nothing but armored targets can be pretty effective.

I do prefer Reapers to Ravagers, though. If they line up with the rest of your army, I'd definitely recommend them.


Last edited by MHaruspex on Mon Jan 25 2016, 12:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 12:38

How do you use the scourges?

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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 17:10

I have typically been doing haywire scourge but they die after the come in and sometimes there's no tank in sight and they are next to useless. Thinking of switching to heat lances with a wwp.. I run my ravagers as dissies, almost always 3 in a game, the anti TEQ is so nice. I'm mostly looking for the best turn 1 long range anti tank, it certainly sounds like it can go either way between 3 lance ravagers or reapers mostly due to luck and dice
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 17:14

I'd strongly advise against the use of WWP Heat Lance scourges.

A unit of 5 with 4 Heat Lances and an Archon with WWP is 215pts.

2 units of Heat Lance Scourges is 240. Just seems better to do that and risk a bad deep-strike. Heat Lances at least give you a bit more flexibility in where you can land, and a second unit gives you a great deal more redundancy.
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Xm0shcryptX
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 19:20

I could always use fire dragons with wwp I know it would be miles better especially in an aspect host. It just feels wrong to not be pure Sad
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 21:50

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
I could always use fire dragons with wwp I know it would be miles better especially in an aspect host. It just feels wrong to not be pure Sad

Fire Dragons are superior in pretty much every single way to any DE units when it comes to tank hunting.

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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 22:58

Gross that it's the same cost as our 5 man blaster born, we get a worse gun, armor, special rules and BS if it's an aspect host. But of points "balance" the game lol or they just throw random amounts around when they make codecies
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 23:09

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
Gross that it's the same cost as our 5 man blaster born, we get a worse gun, armor, special rules and BS if it's an aspect host.

Hate to tell you this, but 5 blasterborn are actually 10pts more than 5 fire dragons.

Oh, and the fire dragons have 5 fusion guns, whilst those blasterborn have only 4 blasters (and can't buy any more).

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
But of points "balance" the game lol or they just throw random amounts around when they make codecies

I believe a dart-board is involved. However, in the case of Eldar, most of the numbers are replaced with '0'.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 23:13

I was including an exarch my bad haha
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Mon Jan 25 2016, 23:14

@CptMetal wrote:
How do you use the scourges?
I typically run two Haywire squads, or just one if under 1500pts. I take chances with them when it comes to dangerous terrain tests - both deploying in terrain or moving through it to get better shots/move somewhere they can get suboptimal shots but avoid getting shot next turn. They're easily mobile enough to move out of awkward position into somewhere where they can shoot from effectively next turn. But during Night Fight, for example, I'll deploy them in terrain so they can go to ground if shot at for a 3+ cover save. And that's if they're even shot at instead of the Raiders full of Grotesques. You could deploy them behind a different unit for the same effect, but I prefer to have them deployed as far forward as possible against most armies. If the opponent has a lot of shooting that can wipe the Scourge before they get in range, I'll deepstrike them (actually, a fair amount of games have me deploying one squad and deepstriking the other) so they're assured to get at least one volley off before going down. Hopefully by then I'd be able to tie up the shootiest units in assault too. I've heard a lot of people saying their experience has been that Scourge consistently shoot once and then go down, but I haven't had that experience.

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
I run my ravagers as dissies, almost always 3 in a game, the anti TEQ is so nice. I'm mostly looking for the best turn 1 long range anti tank, it certainly sounds like it can go either way between 3 lance ravagers or reapers mostly due to luck and dice

If you don't have lances otherwise, I'd try to put at least 1-2 Lance Ravagers in. I typically have 6 lances at most - 2 on Raiders, 2 Blasters in my Venom Warrior units, and 2 Lances on a Razorwing. I find that that's enough to score a Crew Shaken result pretty reliably if there's one vehicle in particular I need to make sure doesn't shoot, which is why I personally don't run any Lance Ravagers. Once you've got a fair amount of lances so you can reliably get a penetrating hit at range though, I'd put the rest of your anti-tank point budget into Reapers if you're shooting for having maximum range/want to avoid using Scourge. In terms of raw hull points, there's nothing a Reaper won't cause more damage to, on average, than a Ravager. If your meta is heavy on Tau you'd want a heavier balance towards lances, though - nothing quite like popping Crisis Suits or they're much effective against Riptides/Broadsides and the like. If you're not playing against Tau 24/7 though, definitely worth thinking about at least two Reapers, though - nothing sucks quite like taking only one and seeing it miss.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fire Dragons are superior in pretty much every single way to any DE units when it comes to tank hunting.

A-at least Scourge have better range than Fire Dragons? But yeah, those things are insane.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 01:11

Wwp with a raider and dragons X 3 is a sight to behold
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 09:40

@Count Adhemar wrote:
It's very good but very dice dependent. If you miss with the gun more often than not you'll think it's a waste of points but if you hit frequently you'll think it's amazing.

This is pretty accurate IMO.

I don't like weapon platforms with only one shot, and neither does GW if the ever increasing amount of units that get twin linked or BS5+ or can shoot twice (and throw in ignores cover just cos) from formations or other such silliness is anything to go by.  

Its unreliability needs to be offset by a low points cost. It should be less points than a DL ravager.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 15:08

How about a 3-reaper battery?

Heavy on points, but with that, you have reasonably good anti infantry, with the 3 large blasts and a random-efficiency AT.

Which means you'll need to complete your army with the 2 things that are weak against:

TEQ and a reliable AT.

I'd put haywire scourge, but I already have haywire. Maybe blaster scourges, for the anti-TEQ and AT.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 15:31

Are the rules for the Reaper on the FW site, or in one of their books?

@Painjunky wrote:

I don't like weapon platforms with only one shot, and neither does GW if the ever increasing amount of units that get twin linked or BS5+ or can shoot twice (and throw in ignores cover just cos) from formations or other such silliness is anything to go by.  

Its unreliability needs to be offset by a low points cost. It should be less points than a DL ravager.

To be fair, it's not like 3 shots makes the Ravager reliable.

But yeah, I've never been a fan of vehicles with single-shot weapons, either. Maybe if they're cheap enough to spam.

@dumpeal wrote:

I'd put haywire scourge, but I already have haywire. Maybe blaster scourges, for the anti-TEQ and AT.

I'd be wary of blasters on Scourges. They're more expensive than haywire or heat lances, and their short range means your scourges might not even get to fire them.

Some comparisons:
140pts gets you 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters. So, 5 T3 wounds with 4+/6+ saves and 18" range weapons.
125pts gets you a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances. So, only 3 shots but at twice the range.
146pts gets you 6 Reavers with 2 Blasters and 2 Cluster Caltrops. So, only 2 blaster shots, but 6 T4 wounds with 5+ saves that can also Jink. They also have 4 S4 Rending HoW hits and 2d6 S6 Rending HoW hits. Or, if you do't charge, they can move 2d6" in the assault phase.
If you play Corsairs, 150pts gets you 5 Balestrikes with Dark Lances and Jet Packs. Only a 6" move, but an extra shot over the scourges and twice the range. They lack the 6++ but can JSJ. Also, if anything gets within 12", they can shoot it and then move a total of 3d6+6" away. Also, every model in the squad can have a heavy weapon (so you could easily add another couple of dark lance balestrikes), whilst scourges are stuck at 4 weapons regardless of squad size.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 17:06

@The Shredder wrote:

@dumpeal wrote:

I'd put haywire scourge, but I already have haywire. Maybe blaster scourges, for the anti-TEQ and AT.

I'd be wary of blasters on Scourges. They're more expensive than haywire or heat lances, and their short range means your scourges might not even get to fire them.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But, in this case, I already used the heavy slots for the reaper, so, no ravagers. And the purpose of the scourge is to have a reliable AT. I would deep strike them, and hope for a not to far scattering. I can't use heat lance in this case. Haywire would be nice, but I'm afraid to not have enough lance weapon for the TEQ if I take haywire.

Again, scourge won't have to do all the AT damage. I can't imagine none of the reaper will hit. It's more for the finishing strikes.

Reavers could be fine too, but I lack the experience with them and I tend to always discard them because of that.


And, yeah. Every other eldars are better than ours.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 17:14

I would run two cads so you can have six heavy slots. 3 reapers, 3 dissie ravagers this gives both anti tank and anti TEQ. Throw in two haywire scourge squads and I think it should be enough anti tank as long as I don't run into 5 imperial knights lol
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Tue Jan 26 2016, 17:59

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
I would run two cads so you can have six heavy slots. 3 reapers, 3 dissie ravagers this gives both anti tank and anti TEQ. Throw in two haywire scourge squads and I think it should be enough anti tank as long as I don't run into 5 imperial knights lol

1 lance ravager and 2 dissie ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Wed Jan 27 2016, 20:34

@Xm0shcryptX wrote:
I would run two cads so you can have six heavy slots. 3 reapers, 3 dissie ravagers this gives both anti tank and anti TEQ. Throw in two haywire scourge squads and I think it should be enough anti tank as long as I don't run into 5 imperial knights lol

The problem here isn't killing tanks, but rendering them unable to shoot back. That's what Dark Eldar needs to be doing to survive your opponents turn. Scoring 2 glancing hits with your scourges (they score 2.2 iirc) means the opponents' vehicle is still fully functional to shoot back and move next turn, so you often need to finish it off with another squad of scourges, or a rogue dark lance if you have any raiders (so it can't flat out or jink in previous turn), or one of your reapers.

While its possible to glance something to death with scourges, or with a single reaper shot, it's far from reliable. Shooting 3 dark lances at something is bound to worry them because its able to penetrate their armour no matter what, and the AP2 means it actually has a chance to kill it. This is how you make them choose to jink or get shaken, which is more important so you can move on to your next target.

@dumpeal wrote:

1 lance ravager and 2 dissie ravagers.

Yeah, this is more flexible and able to force some shaken results, or instant death some targets of priority.

With this kind of list, using all 6 Heavy Slots, I'd play something like 2/2/2 reapers, ravagers with DLs, and ravagers with Dissies.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Wed Jan 27 2016, 20:49

Personally, I can count the number of times my Ravager (or other dark lance stuff) has actually incapacitated a vehicle.

99% of the time it:
- Misses the target
- Fails to even glance the target
- Only glances the target
- Glances the target but it basses its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
- Penetrates but the target passes its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
- Penetrates but is stopped via some other nonsense - like the Serpent Shield
- Penetrates and immobilises a vehicle that hasn't moved for the entire game and wasn't going to start anytime soon
- Penetrates and destroys a useless weapon
- Penetrates and causes crew shaken/stunned, which the target is immune to
- Penetrates and causes crew shaken, crew stunned, immobilised or weapon destroyed - all of which the vehicle is immune to
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Wed Jan 27 2016, 21:51

My Ravagers "usually" perform pretty well, though a lot of the times it either wiffs or fails to cause any damage.

There was one game where on the first turn, I poked it up over a hill and shot at an Imperial Guard Demo Lemon Russ. I exploded it first turn, causing a ton of damage to his infantry that he was using to "bubble wrap" the tank.

I'll never forget that moment. I still usually take 1-2 Ravagers most games though.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Wed Jan 27 2016, 22:17

About a year ago, my Ravager killed some sort of FW dreadnought on the first turn.

That was the last time it did well.
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PostSubject: Re: The reaper   Thu Jan 28 2016, 00:21

@The Shredder wrote:
99% of the time
I'm certain this is quite the exaggeration, but I know what you mean.

@The Shredder wrote:
Misses the target
Our reaper and scourges have the same BS, so generally aren't much more likely to hit. Again, allied fire dragons in an aspect host... Our whole army sucks compared haha.

@The Shredder wrote:
Only glances the target
Suspiciously exactly the same as haywire.

@The Shredder wrote:
- Glances the target but it basses its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
- Penetrates but the target passes its Jink/cover/invulnerable save
We can't really compete with invulnerable saves, I know. As for cover, we're skimmers so we can 'usually' move enough to deny them a save this way, short of smoke launchers etc. Jink saves are annoying, but kinda play into our favour, as their skimmer now can't shoot accurately enough to kill ours.

The rest of the pen results you're so disappointed to see apply to any faction shooting at armour, so its not something our lances are uniquely terrible at - with the exception of lacking ap1 of course.

Vehicles which ignore shaken/stunned trolls everyone except multiple meltagun squads. In those circumstances, say, a daemonic possession vehicle, yeah our haywire is a much better option.
But its a terrible idea relying solely on haywire guns.

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