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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 13:28

@The Shredder wrote:


So, they're an assault unit that can never hide in combat or tie up enemy units for a turn? Wink

More seriously, I'd be wary of making them Jetbikes as it makes them even closer to Reavers. I think it would be better to go a different route, rather than making them direct competitors. What if we gave them 18" movement, like Eldar Swooping Hawks? They'd probably need better melee stuff, but it would at least give them a niche (rather than just being worse than Reavers in every way). It might also make Skyboards more enticing for characters. Could even make Hellions troops and go from there.

But it would make them fit their fluff far more, appearing out of nowhere and crashing into assault before disappearing off again.

My key reasoning behind making them jetbikes (not eldar jetbikes mind, so they'd get a lesser flat out move and no combat phase movement besides charging) was to give them jink. In fairness, I'd rather just see jink applied to specific units as a special rule and for it not to be a cover save, but in the interest of working within the existing rulebook framework, jetbikes is the easiest alternative. T3 with no save to speak of makes them really vulnerable, but a 4+ jink would make them more resilient (albeit open to more shooting). It works in the assault phase too unlike the wyches dodge, so they'd be less open to taking casualties on the charge. Plus by hitting and running all the time you're putting yourself in a position to double your attack damage without actually changing the unit all that much.

As for melee improvements, I think there's a case for making all DE melee weapons poisoned, and possibly even rending, it would balance up then against Craftworld Eldar with their rending catapults.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 13:49

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

My key reasoning behind making them jetbikes (not eldar jetbikes mind, so they'd get a lesser flat out move and no combat phase movement besides charging) was to give them jink. In fairness, I'd rather just see jink applied to specific units as a special rule and for it not to be a cover save, but in the interest of working within the existing rulebook framework, jetbikes is the easiest alternative. T3 with no save to speak of makes them really vulnerable, but a 4+ jink would make them more resilient (albeit open to more shooting). It works in the assault phase too unlike the wyches dodge, so they'd be less open to taking casualties on the charge. Plus by hitting and running all the time you're putting yourself in a position to double your attack damage without actually changing the unit all that much.

But, if the main point is to give them a Jink save, why not just do that? Add Jink to the skyboard's rules. You could even say that they count as Jinking (without losing BS) if they move over a certain distance.

For me, 'Jetbike' just doesn't feel right for skyboards.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

As for melee improvements, I think there's a case for making all DE melee weapons poisoned, and possibly even rending, it would balance up then against Craftworld Eldar with their rending catapults.

I can get behind this. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 14:58

@The Shredder wrote:


But, if the main point is to give them a Jink save, why not just do that? Add Jink to the skyboard's rules. You could even say that they count as Jinking (without losing BS) if they move over a certain distance.

For me, 'Jetbike' just doesn't feel right for skyboards.

Because it's about working within the existing framework of rules to avoid complicating things further. As I said I'd be happy to see jink appear in a unit's special rules but that's not how the rulebook and codices work at the moment.

Currently they are jump infantry, so can move 12" and run. If you give jink to jump infantry then you start asking the question as to why other jump infantry can't jink - resulting in a justifiable claim that they break the games basic rules. I'm also dubious that jump infantry is really appropriate for them, since a skyboard is more something to ride on than typical of a jump infantry type unit where you get some kind of boost pack etc.

By making them jetbikes, you increase their move in the shooting phase (making them faster, and therefore more akin to their fluff) and gain jink without having to break any of the other rules conventions established by the rulebook. For me, a skyboard is more akin to a jetbike than a jump pack given how they are ridden and used (ie there's no need for a model with a skyboard to touch the ground at any point, whereas a jump pack is more designed just to increase the speed of movement rather than allow hovering).

Interestingly, there's almost no other instances of a jetbike being used in the rules (Sammael, and deffkoptas are the only two that spring to mind) so it would also round out that provision within the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 15:08

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Because it's about working within the existing framework of rules to avoid complicating things further. As I said I'd be happy to see jink appear in a unit's special rules but that's not how the rulebook and codices work at the moment.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Other codices invent new rules all the time. Neutral

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Currently they are jump infantry, so can move 12" and run. If you give jink to jump infantry then you start asking the question as to why other jump infantry can't jink

Eldar have Jump infantry that can move 18" instead of 12", have jet infantry that can move 6"+2d6" in the movement phase and then move 2d6" every time an enemy fires at them. Don't these also raise questions?

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I'm also dubious that jump infantry is really appropriate for them, since a skyboard is more something to ride on than typical of a jump infantry type unit where you get some kind of boost pack etc.

Buy skyboards also don't offer any actual protection. It's laughable that bikes grant +1T, but at least they conceal some of the model - with skyboards the model would be getting +1T because he's standing on something. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 15:23

I think we should stop referencing our cousins since they are over the top in every direction. No matter how you look at them, they shine in everything. Durability? No problem. Offensive potential? Check. Psychic power? Oh yes. Speed? Hell yes. Gargantuan creatures? Yup.

Other codices are strong in one or two of those but the Craftworld Eldar are just broken.

Rending on witches would be very much fun indeed. I'd love to hunt gargantuan creatures with witches!

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 15:50

@The Shredder wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Other codices invent new rules all the time. Neutral

Yes, but they don't usually invent new ways of applying existing rules (for example you don't see Tau gun drones getting jink). I think the key thing is I'm not looking at re-writing the rulebook. My intention was to look at how Hellions could be easily improved within the existing rulebook framework.

@The Shredder wrote:
Eldar have Jump infantry that can move 18" instead of 12", have jet infantry that can move 6"+2d6" in the movement phase and then move 2d6" every time an enemy fires at them. Don't these also raise questions?

Yes they do, and in that respect they also break the basic rules of the game, which is what I'm looking to avoid doing.

@The Shredder wrote:
But skyboards also don't offer any actual protection. It's laughable that bikes grant +1T, but at least they conceal some of the model - with skyboards the model would be getting +1T because he's standing on something.  tongue

There's no reason why a skyboard wouldn't conceal part of the model - mine are modelled at all sorts of weird angles as are many of the others I've seen around, and the rider is likely to be hunched low over the back of it. I think it's a much better fit rules-wise than them being jump or jet pack infantry.

As CptMetal says, there's little point comparing a well written, balanced-with-flaws book to the Eldar codex, which has very few weaknesses in it at all (banshees and storm guardians with no native assault transports is about the only one I can think of)

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 16:00

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Yes, but they don't usually invent new ways of applying existing rules (for example you don't see Tau gun drones getting jink)

Erm...I'm not sure how to break this to you but Tau drones can indeed get Jink (and Interceptor, Outflank, Precision Shots and Split Fire). It's in the Drone Net VX1-0 Formation.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 16:02

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Yes, but they don't usually invent new ways of applying existing rules (for example you don't see Tau gun drones getting jink). I think the key thing is I'm not looking at re-writing the rulebook. My intention was to look at how Hellions could be easily improved within the existing rulebook framework.

Alright. In that case, what about giving them Flickerfields?

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

There's no reason why a skyboard wouldn't conceal part of the model - mine are modelled at all sorts of weird angles as are many of the others I've seen around, and the rider is likely to be hunched low over the back of it. I think it's a much better fit rules-wise than them being jump or jet pack infantry.

I still don't. I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of model you could cover, and the protection that would offer.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

As CptMetal says, there's little point comparing a well written, balanced-with-flaws book

Which book is that?

I'm sure you're not referring to ours because it's appallingly written and not balanced in the slightest.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
to the Eldar codex, which has very few weaknesses in it at all (banshees and storm guardians with no native assault transports is about the only one I can think of)

I get what you mean, but on the other hand there isn't much else to compare our book to. Neutral

Maybe Corsairs, but they use a lot of Eldar stuff and don't always have appropriate comparisons anyway (e.g. there's nothing remotely comparable to Hellions).
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 16:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Erm...I'm not sure how to break this to you but Tau drones can indeed get Jink (and Interceptor, Outflank, Precision Shots and Split Fire). It's in the Drone Net VX1-0 Formation.

Oh good grief, I knew they'd given them split fire and interceptor, I didn't realise they'd given them jink as well!

@The Shredder wrote:
Alright. In that case, what about giving them Flickerfields?

You could, but then you'd need to do something else with them to make them faster and more survivable (I actually have taken Hellions in a couple of games under the new rules, so I know just exactly how quickly they die, and even a 5++ wouldn't save them that much)

@The Shredder wrote:
I still don't. I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of model you could cover, and the protection that would offer.

Well you are of course free to disagree with me. As I am with you. whichever way you cut it, the application of rules for toughness and saves with bikes is poorly applied. Eldar jetbikes get a ridiculous benefit over others with +2 to their armour save, whilst space marine bikes don't get the improved save that other bikes do (it's even inconsistently applied across the codex, with scout bikes getting an improved 3+ save)

@The Shredder wrote:
Which book is that?
I didn't say it existed, just that it's what most of us would like all the codices to be

@The Shredder wrote:
I get what you mean, but on the other hand there isn't much else to compare our book to. Neutral
Any of the middle of the road books would be reasonable - avoid orks and chaos, and eldar and necrons and you're probably ok. When I say well-balanced I mean a codex where you'd be quite happy to take 75%+ of the units in an average game.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 16:49

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Any of the middle of the road books would be reasonable - avoid orks and chaos, and eldar and necrons and you're probably ok. When I say well-balanced I mean a codex where you'd be quite happy to take 75%+ of the units in an average game.

But that's the point - it's a lot harder to compare DE to those armies because you're also factoring in different strength, toughness and initiative values, as well as various other considerations.

Eldar at least have comparable statlines.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 17:01

@The Shredder wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Any of the middle of the road books would be reasonable - avoid orks and chaos, and eldar and necrons and you're probably ok. When I say well-balanced I mean a codex where you'd be quite happy to take 75%+ of the units in an average game.

But that's the point - it's a lot harder to compare DE to those armies because you're also factoring in different strength, toughness and initiative values, as well as various other considerations.

Eldar at least have comparable statlines.

But Craftworld Eldar are not meant to be comparable to Dark Eldar either. Just because they have Eldar in the name and they're almost all T3 as well doesn't mean that they have in any way similar characteristics or playstyles.

From what I've seen, the Eldar book is incredibly well-balanced, because aside form the aforementioned storm guardians and banshees, you'd quite happily take most of the units in an army. What I think lets that book down is the power level it applies to that balance, which is higher than anything else out there.

Dark Eldar armies are supposed to strike fast and hard but not be able to get hit very hard. A craftworld eldar army by contrast is not mean to be lightning fast, but has a tool for every job and is tactically astute enough to have that tool available at the right place and time. They aren't fragile in the same way as Dark Eldar are meant to be.

The biggest failing in our book is that power level. I'm convinced it was rushed out rather than developed as they'd have liked, and as a consequence the internal balance is off as well as the power level, which is far more in line with the other books released at that time such as Orks and Blood Angels.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Wed Feb 03 2016, 17:09

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Dark Eldar armies are supposed to strike fast and hard but not be able to get hit very hard. A craftworld eldar army by contrast is not mean to be lightning fast, but has a tool for every job and is tactically astute enough to have that tool available at the right place and time. They aren't fragile in the same way as Dark Eldar are meant to be.

That doesn't prevent a comparison in any shape or form. If anything it makes it easier. You're starting from the same statline, so all you have to ask is 'are these models gaining an appropriate amount of damage output, given that they have worse saves/wargear/speed/special rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Thu Feb 04 2016, 06:03

I like the idea of giving Hellions two forms of movement they can choose from

1) Jump Pack, so they can get HoW in charging for the kill
2) Beast, so they can zip through cover without dying from trees

They already use skyboards for beast wrangling so the latter makes sense already. This also differentiates them even more from scourges and reavers

Quote :
Dark Eldar armies are supposed to strike fast and hard but not be able to get hit very hard.

But even in 3e the DE had grotesques which were immune to anything short of a shuriken cannon, the Archon had the game's only 2+inv, warriors were around the same cost as an ork, only the wraithlord exceeded the talos in toughness, and wyches were designed to tarpit the most deadly of assault units.

In 7e you have covens that give you multiwound high toughness as the core of your army.

Really, the only consistently 'frail but fast' part of the DE are the vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Fri Feb 05 2016, 19:50

@The Shredder wrote:
But, if the main point is to give them a Jink save, why not just do that? Add Jink to the skyboard's rules. You could even say that they count as Jinking (without losing BS) if they move over a certain distance.

I would just give all Wych Cult units (which Hellions technically still are) Jink. If brining a knife to a gunfight is your bread and butter, you better know how to dodge the enemies' shots.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 10:08

That's an interesting idea.

In regard to Hellions: I got two boxes of those in the shelf and I just don't build them. I am thinking about running them as beast masters because of the aforementioned move through cover. If Hellions had that special rule as well they would have a huge survivability... At least against anything else than Tau.

Currently, they are a shooty unit as beast masters.

Maybe give the witches different fighting styles from which they can choose one at the beginning of each turn:

Lightning dance - gives them jink
Thunder dance - giving them hammer of wrath attacks
Light feet - giving them move through cover
Precision Strike - giving them rending

And the drug roll on top of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 22:49

I think the underlying problem is that the formation driven "USR piñata" makes the game essentially impossible to balance.

Basic stateliness can be balanced because they are fundamentally based on dice probabilities. But when you take say a vanilla Space Marine, and toss on Ignore Cover, 1st turn Charge, Twin link everything, etc, etc, what is it worth then? Does the statline even matter anymore? With enough bonuses you can turn a Guardsman into a Monstrous Creature if you want to.

The USR's were supposed to be sprinkled in to add a little flavor here and there, not poured over everything like Ketchup. The more you break the basic game rules, the more the game just falls apart.

A Terminator is 17% more durable than a Space Marine IF you have to roll against his save. But if every other model is AP2 then your advantage is basically non existent.

A Dark Eldar Raider's value is predicated on having a 4+ Jinx save the majority of the time. With the handing out of ignore cover in mass quantities, it is almost worth 50% less than it's points would indicate.

I realize that assuming nothing else changes, the competitive option is "if you can't beat em, join em!" but I think that it just keeps pushing the game towards unplayability as well as is almost certain to render the majority of our codex shelfware as everyone is forced to spam whatever super unit/formation we are allotted next time around.

That said, I think there are many small, reasonable changes we could make to our codex to better balance it and stay within the fluff. I just don't know whether you can go far enough to be competitive in a world where your opponent is going to assault you turn 1 from deep strike, void your overwatch, and hit you with mobile heavy weapons....
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 23:00

Another aspect is that the mass of bonus rules in the game at the moment makes it really time consuming. I remember when I first tried the Necron Decurion at 1500pts. I wanted to go through what all my stuff did (so that I wasn't springing any surprises on my opponents).

First I had to go through what each unit was, what wargear they had and what their notable special rules were. Then I had to explain what the Decurion's main rules did. Then I had to explain what the Reclamation Legion did and which models were part of it. Then I had to explain what the Destroyer Cult did and which models were part of it. Then I had to explain what the Canoptek Harvest formation did and which models were part of it. etc.

Then of course, my opponent has to go through all his units, wargear, special rules, super-formations, formations etc. Not to mention any allies or such.

And, if you're anything like me, you immediately forget what he said anyway and either have to keep asking or else get something sprung on you because you forgot the 237th rule he mentioned.


On the other hand, the lack of any unique special rules in the DE book makes it really dull and flavourless - so perhaps some middle-ground would be welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 23:03

The latest Wulfen crap is really hammering home the fact that 40K is essentially unplayable in its current form. It's just spiralling out of control with each new release having to have bigger and better guns/knives/stabbing weapons/formations/special rules etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 23:08

Are the wolf guys so over powered? We can just shoot them. Who wants to get into close combat with them anyway?

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sat Feb 06 2016, 23:34

I'm not too worried about the Wulfen. Space Wolves (and Daemons as well) are an outdated army like ours, so them getting an update now could actually be a sign that we may be due for one soon.

@CptMetal wrote:
Are the wolf guys so over powered? We can just shoot them. Who wants to get into close combat with them anyway?

Beasts with a slightly above MEQ-level stat line, Wolfguard-like weapon options, Scout armor, a bunch of typical close combat special rules and FNP, from what I have heard.
My only concerns are that they could be underpriced and might not actually have rules that make them as hard to control as they are supposed to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sun Feb 07 2016, 07:51

They are 30 points a piece. That's nothing I'm afraid of.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sun Feb 07 2016, 09:49

@CptMetal wrote:
They are 30 points a piece. That's nothing I'm afraid of.

That can charge you first turn from the other side of the table and hit you with thunderhammers even after they're dead.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sun Feb 07 2016, 09:54

Only a 4+ save though. Mandrakes to the rescue! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sun Feb 07 2016, 09:56

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Only a 4+ save though. Mandrakes to the rescue! Razz

God luck shooting them from inside their own deployment zone before they assault you in yours.

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PostSubject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design   Sun Feb 07 2016, 09:57

I've also heard stuff about a S8 AP2 unwieldy weapon that strikes at initiative on the first round of combat.
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Dreaming about Dark Eldar design
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