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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 02:52

According to GW, that's the only reason ANY of their factions are popular. They're wrong, of course. But that doesn't stop them from saying it.

I don't play DE because of their model range. I play them because I like the idea behind how they operate as a faction. The lightning fast, raider-style gameplay is what drew me in to begin with, and I ended up liking their background/fluff.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 08:22

@The Shredder wrote:
@Devilogical wrote:
Thing that gives us a slap is not just nerfs.
Most of them was predictable (removing hyware from wyches, nerfing beasts) but the point is: i don`t think that DE codex was REALY that good last edition. We were more uniqe and have some good stuf as well as pretty useless (hellions, mandrakes, Kheradruakh, some artifacts). There was no need of any nerfs. We would not carry against most modern armies anyway

Oh, I agree entirely. Hell, I don't even think Haywire wyches needed nerfing (it's not really their ideal role, but I don't think they were OP and it was still better than no role at all). Beast packs certainly didn't.


Five wyches in venom with hywires can dextroy Warhound in like 1-2 turns. Yet them far more cheaper, than any tank or walker in the game. So they was realy powerfull on this point. That`s why i said this nerf was predictable.

But instead of giving them some battlefield role (charge unit, tank-hunters), GW compllitely removed it.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 09:40

@Devilogical wrote:

Five wyches in venom with hywires can dextroy Warhound in like 1-2 turns.

So, our glass units might have actually had some cannons, too?
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 10:04

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
I'd say that the more popular an army the better it's codex but then I take a look at the codex chaos Space Marines...

Could you tell me what makes chaos space marines a bad codex without mentioning vanilla space marines(or their abilities)?

Lack of transport options
forced challenges
overpriced units all over the codex
bad psi lores and forced to choose from them
lack of formations
same special rules stacking on models without effect (oh look, my zealot character got hatred as option, hatred as warlord treat and a hatred mutation)
Marks without any benefit to the unit (yep Slaanesh Obliterators are totally worth)
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 10:11

The main concern for me is the moral of basic chaos Marines. They are just too unreliable. Give them stubborn or something like that at least.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 18:51

@Devilogical wrote:

Five wyches in venom with hywires can dextroy Warhound in like 1-2 turns. Yet them far more cheaper, than any tank or walker in the game. So they was realy powerfull on this point. That`s why i said this nerf was predictable.

5 haywire armed wyches in a venom weren't cheaper than every tank or walker in the game. They clocked in at 115 points minimum for a suicide unit. They had to flat out with the venom to destroy a vehicle early in the game before it had an impact, so they forego shooting with the venom, hope they didn't die in the venom explosion, hope they didn't get pinned by the venom explosion, hope they don't retreat from losses, hope they make their charge distance and survive any overwatch from passengers, and hope there are enough of them left to take off the hull points. THEN, if ALL those conditions are met, they can possibly destroy a vehicle.

And if they do, they're likely dead shortly thereafter, because they're a flimsy unit with 3 Toughness and no armor, that doesn't even bother to try to be sneaky(no stealth). Oh, by the way, they're 12 points each. That's 2 points less than a space marine with krak grenades who can fill a similar role while being TONS more versatile and surviveable.

As for price, here's a quick list of things similarly priced to 5 haywyches in a venom, that AREN'T necessarily a suicide unit like the wyches are, including walkers and tanks:

5 Space marines with a meltagun + kraks in a drop pod = Same Price
Dreadnought(Walker) with multimelta and twin-linked autocannon = Same Price
Stormtalon Gunship(Flyer, Hover) with S.H. missile launcher and TL autocannon = Same Price
Ironclad Dreadnought(Walker, 13AV 3HP) with meltagun = 20 points more
Thunderfire Cannon(Artillery) with techmarine = 15 point less
War Walker(Walker, Scout) with dual bright lances = 35 points less
Night Spinner(Tank, Skimmer) = 15 points less
Crimson Hunter(Flyer) with 4 S8 AP2 attacks = 25 points more
Falcon(Tank, Skimmer) = 10 points more

I could go on like this for a long time, across a vast number of codices, which leads me to ask myself 2 questions:

1. Were wyches even worth their price when the COULD take haywire grenades?
and
2. Why don't I play space marines?

Then again, perhaps this is precisely what GW has planned. Maybe they want to shift everyone towards playing space marines so they don't have to expend effort to please small niche branches of players like DE.


@CptMetal wrote:
The main concern for me is the moral of basic chaos Marines. They are just too unreliable. Give them stubborn or something like that at least.

Why should they get that? They're 3 points more than wyches, have +1 morale natively without upgrades, and already get Boltguns for long range combat, 2 CCW on the champion, frag & krak grenades, 3+ armour saves, +1S, +1T, and the ability to be customized to CC or Ranged roles with free options, or paid options for higher effectiveness.

Think it's unfair to compare them to wyches? Ok, what about Trueborn? They're 2 points more than trueborn, and this is what they get for those extra 2 points: have the same leadership values, +1S/+1T, 3+ armour instead of 5+, same WS/BS, are melee capable, frag & krak grenades, and the ability to be customized to CC or Ranged roles with free options, or paid options for higher effectiveness.

The fact is, CSM aren't bad. I know players of CSM that do well competitively in the current meta. A CSM player came 4th in the LVO. I'm tired of hearing the same tired lines from CSM players comparing them to space marines. NEWSFLASH: CSM ARE NOT SPACE MARINES! They were ONCE, but that was 10,000 years ago. Let it go. There are going to be differences. CSM crying about wanting ATSKNF is like DE crying about wanting psykers. There are reasons we don't have it, and that doesn't automatically make it unbalanced. We both get things our counterparts don't have.


EDIT: Since it's a wall of text anyhow, I thought I'd regale you with a tale of my haywyches I used once, to prove a point:

I once regularly ran a list that included 60 haywyches in dual cannon venoms. I was playing a derivative of that list. Lot's of haywyches in venoms with other things supporting. A friend was playing space wolves, and dropped Murderfang(Walker, Character) in behind my lines. I sent 2 units of haywyches to deal with murderfang, since they should statistically be able to take him out easily every time(3 hp vs 2 thrown haywire grenades and 10 CC haywire grenades should be no sweat). I took off 1 hp with a thrown haywire grenade. Perfect, going as planned. I charged. I didn't realise that his murderclaws had a built-in heavy flamer, and I ended up losing 3 wyches to wall of death on the way in. No big deal. I still had 7 wyches with haywires. I get to go first with my higher initiative. I rolled terribly, and took off 1 more hp with haywires in CC. Murderfang's turn. He rolls 3 on his D3 attacks from rampage, kills the 2 remaining members of the first wyches squad, and proceeds to destroy the second to the tune of 4 dead wyches. The last wych fails her morale check and runs off my board edge, leaving murderfang in my back line, not locked in combat as my opponent begins his turn.

My opponent ends up moving murderfang to position him in a way that allows him to flamer template a raider and a backfield unit of kabalite's that are manning a quad gun behind an aegis. He announces the raider as his primary target, but manages to get 4 kabalite's under the template. All 4 die. 2 Kabalites inside the raider die to the no escape rule. Murderfang charges the raider and blows it up. 4 more of the kabalites inside die and the remaining 4 are pinned from the explosion. The 5th and final man from the kabalites manning the quad gun is killed by a 6" explosion range. Murderfang is unscathed. My turn. I send another unit of wyches to deal with murderfang, and they end up dispatching him easily enough, but only after he killed 2 units of wyches, 2 units of kabalites, and a raider. Lucky for me that he never regained any HP from "It will not die".

Oh yeah, murderfang is 135 points.

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Last edited by BetrayTheWorld on Mon Jan 04 2016, 19:26; edited 1 time in total
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 19:05

Quote :
A CSM player came 4th in the LVO.

Without using a single CSM.
Quote :

I'm tired of hearing the same tired lines from CSM players comparing them to space marines. NEWSFLASH: CSM ARE NOT SPACE MARINES!

Care to try to write Chaos Space Marine without "Space Marine"?
Quote :

There are going to be differences.

And only having negative differences is good because....?

Quote :
There are reasons we don't have it, and that doesn't automatically make it unbalanced. We both get things our counterparts don't have.

Can you point out what the CSM counterpart does have that compensates for:
ATSKNF
Combat Squads
Chapter Tactics
Combat Doctrines
Grav
Droppod/Razorback

I would really love to see what in your mind the chaos space marines advantages are that do not come with an additional point cost attatched and where having less weapons/transports is an advantage in itself.



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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 19:11

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Devilogical wrote:

Five wyches in venom with hywires can dextroy Warhound in like 1-2 turns. Yet them far more cheaper, than any tank or walker in the game. So they was realy powerfull on this point. That`s why i said this nerf was predictable.

5 haywire armed wyches in a venom weren't cheaper than every tank or walker in the game. They clocked in at 115 points minimum for a suicide unit. They had to flat out with the venom to destroy a vehicle early in the game before it had an impact, so they forego shooting with the venom, hope they didn't die in the venom explosion, hope they didn't get pinned by the venom explosion, hope they don't retreat from losses, hope they make their charge distance and survive any overwatch from passengers, and hope there are enough of them left to take off the hull points. THEN, if ALL those conditions are met, they can possibly destroy a vehicle.

And if they do, they're likely dead shortly thereafter, because they're a flimsy unit with 3 Toughness and no armor, that doesn't even bother to try to be sneaky(no stealth). Oh, by the way, they're 12 points each. That's 2 points less than a space marine with krak grenades who can fill a similar role while being TONS more versatile and surviveable.

As for price, here's a quick list of things similarly priced to 5 haywyches in a venom, that AREN'T necessarily a suicide unit like the wyches are, including walkers and tanks:

5 Space marines with a meltagun + kraks in a drop pod = Same Price
Dreadnought(Walker) with multimelta and twin-linked autocannon = Same Price
Stormtalon Gunship(Flyer, Hover) with S.H. missile launcher and TL autocannon = Same Price
Ironclad Dreadnought(Walker, 13AV 3HP) with meltagun = 20 points more
Thunderfire Cannon(Artillery) with techmarine = 15 point less
War Walker(Walker, Scout) with dual bright lances = 35 points less
Night Spinner(Tank, Skimmer) = 15 points less
Crimson Hunter(Flyer) with 4 S8 AP2 attacks = 25 points more
Falcon(Tank, Skimmer) = 10 points more

I could go on like this for a long time, across a vast number of codices, which leads me to ask myself 2 questions:

1. Were wyches even worth their price when the COULD take haywire grenades?
and
2. Why don't I play space marines?

Then again, perhaps this is precisely what GW has planned. Maybe they want to shift everyone towards playing space marines so they don't have to expend effort to please small niche branches of players like DE.

Well put.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Why should they get that? They're 3 points more than wyches, have +1 morale natively without upgrades, and already get Boltguns for long range combat, 2 CCW on the champion, frag & krak grenades, 3+ armour saves, +1S, +1T, and the ability to be customized to CC or Ranged roles with free options, or paid options for higher effectiveness.

Think it's unfair to compare them to wyches? Ok, what about Trueborn? They're 2 points more than trueborn, and this is what they get for those extra 2 points: have the same leadership values, +1S/+1T, 3+ armour instead of 5+, same WS/BS, are melee capable, frag & krak grenades, and the ability to be customized to CC or Ranged roles with free options, or paid options for higher effectiveness.

To be honest, I think that's more to do with Wyches AND Trueborn being garbage.

Trueborn are "elites" with a pitiful selection of overpriced weapons, who can't even take one special weapon each. A squad with 4 Blasters costs more than a squad of 5 Fire Dragons with 5 Meltas, who are orders of magnitude better against vehicles, in addition to having better armour, better mobility and melta bombs on every model.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 19:46

As a CSM player I can tell you that CSM are bad, but at least have enough options to surprise your opponent every week.  Between the "vanilla" book, black legion supplement, crimson slaughter supplement, khorne demonkin, and renegades and heretics (good chance you weren't actually going to take any chaos marines anyway) - You can always assemble something fun if not terribly effective.

I've had a ton of fun playing renegades and heretics.  If I really want to win with actual CSM though, I play crimson slaughter with a deamon summoning possessed deathstar.  Possessed are considered to be one of the worst units in the book, but with the right supplement can be built into some very nasty troops.

We have no such options with the dark eldar.  Grotesque are good, a supplement makes them a bit better.  Wracks suck, slightly less so when they're fearless.   What's left is pretty much the same list with minor variations over and over.  Sadly this is what's driven me away from the dark kin, the repetition.

TLDR; CSM may be bad, but most of the dark eldar book truly is "garbage".
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 20:12

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Can you point out what the CSM counterpart does have that compensates for:
ATSKNF
Combat Squads
Chapter Tactics
Combat Doctrines
Grav
Droppod/Razorback

My point is, you can't keep comparing to space marines only, and expect to be 100% equivalent while never bothering to compare to things OTHER than space marines. CSM are great troops comparied to LOTS of other factions. They're good compared to Tau troops, eldar troops, dark eldar troops, tyranid troops, Inquisition elites(since they don't have troops), Imperial guard troops, and even against necron troops. Literally the ONLY way to make them sound bad is to compare them to space marines. Sounds to me like space marines are overpowered, rather than CSM being underpowered.

Further, CSM(The faction) has other troops that they can select. Chaos cultists are 1 point more expensive than IG conscripts while being orders of magnitude better, and CSM are the only codex left that has battlefield role manipulation, allowing you to use Elite's as troops. Plague marines are freaking amazing at holding objectives. If you want to compare units with space marines, you should be comparing other troop choices like: Berserkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Noise marines to regular space marines. CSM(The Unit) are basically newly recruited flunkies to the chaos cause, not 10,000 year old warriors of chaos that really used to be space marines. They weren't around when they "used to be space marines". Except for modern space marine traitors, they're not the same guys, and they're not being supported by the tech guys of the imperium that repair and maintain weapons and armor like the space marines are. Much of what they have is looted equipment.

If you compare 10 vanilla Tactical marines with no options(122 points), to 5 Plague marines with no options(120 points), I'd bet the plague marines would beat the tac marines in both ranged combat and CC. It scales similarly when you DO start adding options, since the plague marines can add things like 2 flamers to the unit for 10 points, and equivalent priced melee items to vanilla marines. And if you add a power fist to both units, it helps the plague marines just as much as the tac marines, since the plague marines are T5, therefore not instakilled by the powerfist, and still able to take their FnP rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 20:28

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

CSM(The Unit) are basically newly recruited flunkies to the chaos cause, not 10,000 year old warriors of chaos that really used to be space marines. They weren't around when they "used to be space marines". Except for modern space marine traitors, they're not the same guys, and they're not being supported by the tech guys of the imperium that repair and maintain weapons and armor like the space marines are. Much of what they have is looted equipment.

The single difference between a 10,000 year old warrior, who has had to fight tooth and nail for survival in the hellish eye of terror, is 1 Ld, which really makes them feel underwhelming, and in terms of technology, chaos space marines can go to a warp smith, free of fear, free of taboo, free of persecution and request they build something, whereas the imperium is a pool of stagnant thought, and if most of their stuff is looted WHY THE HELL CAN THEY NOT TAKE STORM SHEILDS? It's not like they're hard to find or to use, or even to maintain. Chaos space marines suck, at core, because it is totally ineffective to field an army of chaos space marines (the unit).

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 20:35

Quote :
They're good compared to Tau troops, eldar troops, dark eldar troops, tyranid troops, Inquisition elites(since they don't have troops), Imperial guard troops, and even against necron troops.

You are kidding right? I would take any of them over a CSM ANY day.
Quote :

Further, CSM(The faction) has other troops that they can select. Chaos cultists are 1 point more expensive than IG conscripts while being orders of magnitude better,


WHAT? IG conscripts already got their ranged weapon (+1 points for cultists), have a better armor save AND are able to receive orders while getting a cheap fearless option to provide a good tarpit.
Even the most used troop choice in the CSM book is WORSE that their imperial counterpart (cultist with 24" weapon are the same points as an imperial guard solider. Same weapons, same stats, worse armor, no options, no orders)

Quote :
and CSM are the only codex left that has battlefield role manipulation, allowing you to use Elite's as troops.
Unlike Space Marines (Bikes), right?

Quote :
If you compare 10 vanilla Tactical marines with no options(122 points), to 5 Plague marines with no options(120 points), I'd bet the plague marines would beat the tac marines in both ranged combat and CC.
Except they dont. Less so if you pick actual Chapter tactics.
Quote :

If you want to compare units with space marines, you should be comparing other troop choices like: Berserkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Noise marines to regular space marines.

Even better. Cause everything on that list is so overpriced compared to standard marines. Why not compare them to bikes as Marines can puick them as troops too? Or scouts?

Quote :
CSM(The Unit) are basically newly recruited flunkies to the chaos cause, not 10,000 year old warriors of chaos that really used to be space marines. They weren't around when they "used to be space marines". Except for modern space marine traitors, they're not the same guys, and they're not being supported by the tech guys of the imperium that repair and maintain weapons and armor like the space marines are. Much of what they have is looted equipment.

Veterans of the Long War says otherwise. I would totally buy that if it was reflected in point cost. You can argue fluff all day with me and I even would accept that "they are noobs". So... where is the daemon princ e that can shatter whole armies in a blink of an eye, the drop pods, the nightlords stealth and terror tactics, the CSM veteran who can take out a squad of loyalists on his own, the mighty siege weapons of the iron warriors, the deceptive alpha legion,..? Where do I find all these things shown in the fluff in my CSM codex?

It is what it is. A bad codex that is vastly inferior to the space marine codex. Pretty much like Dark Eldar are inferior to Eldar in nearly every codex entry.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 20:49

@stilgar27 wrote:
As a CSM player I can tell you that CSM are bad, but at least have enough options to surprise your opponent every week.  Between the "vanilla" book, black legion supplement, crimson slaughter supplement, khorne demonkin, and renegades and heretics (good chance you weren't actually going to take any chaos marines anyway) - You can always assemble something fun if not terribly effective.

I've had a ton of fun playing renegades and heretics.  If I really want to win with actual CSM though, I play crimson slaughter with a deamon summoning possessed deathstar.  Possessed are considered to be one of the worst units in the book, but with the right supplement can be built into some very nasty troops.

We have no such options with the dark eldar.  Grotesque are good, a supplement makes them a bit better.  Wracks suck, slightly less so when they're fearless.   What's left is pretty much the same list with minor variations over and over.  Sadly this is what's driven me away from the dark kin, the repetition.

TLDR; CSM may be bad, but most of the dark eldar book truly is "garbage".

Yeah, however bad CSMs it still feels like some effort went into their books. And, whilst they might not have any particularly powerful units, they at least have a lot of interesting and fluffy abilities/wargear.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 20:52

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
So... where is the daemon princ e that can shatter whole armies in a blink of an eye, the drop pods, the nightlords stealth and terror tactics, the CSM veteran who can take out a squad of loyalists on his own, the mighty siege weapons of the iron warriors, the deceptive alpha legion,..? Where do I find all these things shown in the fluff in my CSM codex?

3.5th Edition  Sad (well not the drop pods)
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Mon Jan 04 2016, 23:33

@The Shredder wrote:

Yeah, however bad CSMs it still feels like some effort went into their books. And, whilst they might not have any particularly powerful units, they at least have a lot of interesting and fluffy abilities/wargear.

True, the difference feels more like chaos WAS good, and then all the other books made it unbalanced, they got new things and new ways to play as them, but DE it felt more like they only wanted to take things away, I'd take the 5th edition codex and model line over the 7th any day

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 00:55

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
They're good compared to Tau troops, eldar troops, dark eldar troops, tyranid troops, Inquisition elites(since they don't have troops), Imperial guard troops, and even against necron troops.

You are kidding right? I would take any of them over a CSM ANY day.

I'm sorry to become inflamatory here, but you're either a liar or you don't understand the rules. To say you'd take wyches over CSM any day based on the strength of their stats alone is a statement no one who understands the rules of the game could make with a straight face.

If you're saying "Any" not literally, but to add emphasis, then it's still an argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Equal points of:


Fire warriors vs. Chaos Space Marines: Their weapon values each wound the other in equal measure, so it washes out the difference in toughness values between the two. However, since both will get their armor saves, CSMs win out in survivability, and with better Ld, they won't run as fast as fire warriors will. This will be firewarrior's undoing in the ranged fight. They'll also lose handily as soon as CC hits. You can't count their combined fire ability because it's unit vs. unit, and you're not counting the CSMs support units either.

Eldar Guardians vs. Chaos Space Marines: Basically the same scenario as the fire warriors. Relatively equal in the ranged arena, but fall apart in melee. Even the melee oriented version of Guardians get's schooled by non-melee CSMs in CC. (You can't compare eldar bikes to CSMs(the unit) because CSMs(The Faction) get T6 space marine bikers for 1 point less than an eldar scatterbike. They have an equivalent.

Wyches vs Chaos Space Marines: Wyches get shot to shreds on approach. Their only available transports can be exploded by bolter fire. They have no armor to speak of, no innate FnP, no offensive CC abilities, pistol-range guns, S3, and T3. They lose to shooting badly. Even if they miraculously make it into CC without taking any losses, which is where they should shine, they only manage to tie CSMs in points killed per turn. And even then, only on the charge. 7 wyches charging into 5 CSMs = 1.14 dead CSMs on the charge, 0.99 dead wyches. Subsequent rounds favor CSMs: .65 kills by wyches compared to 0.88 for CSM. And this is where wyches are supposed to be good, in CC. If the CSM took the FREE upgrade to a CC weapons on every model, they crush wyches handily in CC.

I could go on for troops from every selection, but I don't suspect you or anyone else really wants me to. If so, let me know. I feel like my point has been made.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :
and CSM are the only codex left that has battlefield role manipulation, allowing you to use Elite's as troops.
Unlike Space Marines (Bikes), right?

Ok, so I missed one. Sue me. It doesn't change the fact that it's clear that GW has moved away from allowing codices to have battlefield role manipulation in MOST other codices, and CSM are one of the very few instances that have LOTS of those options still. I personally wouldn't be in a hurry to lose those options.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :
If you compare 10 vanilla Tactical marines with no options(122 points), to 5 Plague marines with no options(120 points), I'd bet the plague marines would beat the tac marines in both ranged combat and CC.
Except they dont. Less so if you pick actual Chapter tactics.

Mathhammer incoming:

Doing this mathhammer without counting the extra attack from the plague marines sarge, since we can't tell which wound would kill him in combat. Bear that in mind though, and understand that the extra attack would snowball and become more and more important the longer the combat goes.

Mathammer in this spoiler:
 

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

It is what it is. A bad codex that is vastly inferior to the space marine codex. Pretty much like Dark Eldar are inferior to Eldar in nearly every codex entry.

NEWSFLASH: No basic troops in the game are as good as space marines!

Space marines are the most versatile toops in the game, and they fit in a wide variety of circumstances while being a cheap source of 3+ saves, and overall combat readyness with S4/T4.

That said, CSM can say the same thing, and aren't bad when you compare them to the entire line of available basic troops instead of only comparing them to space marines. As a matter of fact, they are BROKEN OP compared to most other faction's troops.

I propose we rename Chaos Space Marines to Chaos Space Donkeys so that people will understand they aren't the same as space marines, and stop feeling entitled to have everything they have PLUS chaos goodies.

@The Shredder wrote:
whilst they might not have any particularly powerful units

CSMs(The Faction) have TONS of powerful units. The ONLY real complaint is against BASIC CSMs(The Unit), as not being as good as space marines.

CSMs get T6 bikers with 2 CC weapons, frag grenades, krak grenades and twin-linked boltguns with weapon upgrade options for cheaper than eldar scatterbikes. And that is just ONE example! They have fantastic options! What about the hellturkey?! Even with the changes, it's still an amazing support flyer.

Chaos was my first love in 40k. They have a lot of options, and aren't underpowered. The problem is that space marines always get extra special attention. But if there is one thing I've learned in my time playing 40k, when you're talking about balance you can't just use 1 faction as the barometer to measure against. You have to measure against a variety of factions. And if, in doing so, you find that you're only underpowered against 1 specific faction or subset of factions, it's very likely that you're not underpowered, but rather they're OVER powered.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 01:52

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I propose we rename Chaos Space Marines to Chaos Space Donkeys so that people will understand they aren't the same as space marines, and stop feeling entitled to have everything they have PLUS chaos goodies.

That's like saying we should rename Dark Eldar to Dark Ballerinas because they're different, my main complaint is the fact that none of this makes sense in the lore at all

Dark Eldar are described as warriors who devote their entire existence to combat prowess and immortality, using any magic, drug, or other depraved art to meet their ends

Craftworlders are described as children of an ancient empire, lacking resources and manpower, risking entire human worlds to spare a single eldar life, doing anything they can to avoid the depravity of their dark kin and keep their race alive

Yet somehow in the game, CWE are almost always more powerfull than DE at a lower point cost, despite the fact that Dark Eldar technology is described to be magic, and the whole race is in a contest to see who is able to develop the most depraved and powerfull tech

On the flip side of the coin, Chaos Space marines are described as 10,000 year old veterans (yeah, I know there are many more recent traitors but who on earth starts chaos so that they can play 'Frank, and his bunch of non-10,000 year grizzled veterans?), becoming more and more depraved as time goes on, perverting their old beliefs, looting and pillaging, doing anything they can to keep their fire burning

Space Marines are the last hope of a crumbling empire, no new technology is created, their gene stock is running out, and slowly but surely, the number of space marines and space marine weaponry is being lost, destroyed, or turned by the enemy

This is somehow represented in the average space marine being better equipped than the average chaos space marine, having superior tactics and throwing themselves to their deaths like lemmings, even though we're supposed to believe that they're slowly running short of gene stock, and that the lose marines more than they can train them

The issue is that they tell us one thing, and give us something completely contrary.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 02:02

I don't necessarily disagree with that sentiment, YoungArchon. But I primarily look at 40k from the perspective of being a game. Influenced by fluff to be sure, but a game first and foremost. Therefore, everything should be compared and balanced against everything else, not just their fluff counterparts.

DE got screwed in this edition, that's for sure. I don't think Chaos did, and I still think Chaos is competitive against most things, especially with all of the supplements they have available. That said, their core codex IS showing it's age with some defunct or non-functional rules. That in and of itself doesn't make the codex bad or not competitive.

The second most winning player in my core group of about 35 players is a CSM player.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 02:26

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

DE got screwed in this edition, that's for sure. I don't think Chaos did, and I still think Chaos is competitive against most things, especially with all of the supplements they have available. That said, their core codex IS showing it's age with some defunct or non-functional rules. That in and of itself doesn't make the codex bad or not competitive.

I don't personally think they got screwed either, or at least at first, but at this point several armies have had 2 updates since chaos last got moved to 6th, I remember thinking it was rather cool, more of a flesh and metal becoming one type vibe from it, but everything has definitely overtaken it, I think they need to spend more work separating chaos from it's loyalist counterparts, but since comparing the two, you can more or less say "It's the same stuff, but SM nudge them out a little everywhere".

between CWE and DE, CWE need to feel more conservative, every death is a massive wound to the craftworld, there could be soulstone markers upon fallen units, and bonuses granted to squads that grab them, and less like 'We have enough wraiths to kill EVERYTHING!' and dark eldar need to feel more reckless, more angry, more competitive between each other, I'm reminded of the old PFP and combat drugs system, it felt a lot more like each squad were using their own personal stash, each trying to outdo one another, for all of the booty that it brings

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 08:58

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
They're good compared to Tau troops, eldar troops, dark eldar troops, tyranid troops, Inquisition elites(since they don't have troops), Imperial guard troops, and even against necron troops.

You are kidding right? I would take any of them over a CSM ANY day.

I'm sorry to become inflamatory here, but you're either a liar or you don't understand the rules. To say you'd take wyches over CSM any day based on the strength of their stats alone is a statement no one who understands the rules of the game could make with a straight face.

I love how you try to twist and turn and try hard to find examples in what scenario the worst unit to offer in the worst situation they can get in will eventually lose. Maybe.... in 13 rounds.

Tau troops shoot at CSM without CSM shooting back because the range is so much bigger. You chose to ignore that.
Eldar Troops (for some reason you pick guardians over Dire Avengers and Jetbikes) got Battletrance and rending. So no CC for CSM either and around 3 - 4 of them will die every time the Dire Avengers shoot.
Dark Eldar Troops (again you chose the worst unit ingame to prove your point) do get access to Venoms (still troops) so your 10 men CSM squad is getting shot at from 36" range and also will never be able to shoot back.
Inquisition Elites get things like 10 (!!!!) point psykers and Multimelters together with 5 points Bolters as meatshild.
You have absolutely no argument here but tried as hard as possible to make them look good.

I also loved your example of Plaque marines who manage to kill the Space Marines off in an average game of 13 rounds. Not gonna happen. The game ends earlier (you should know that, right?) so they are not going to kill them.

We all started 40k at some point but even in your examples I can tell you are either not playing for a long time or you are not very good and everything seems strong to you.
There are 2 good units in the CSM codex. One is the Dinobot (sorry... Maulerfiend) the other is the Heldrake. There is a reason why people stay far away from anything that is a CSM and prefer adding other things instead. I would really love to see a CSM list of yours and compare it to a SM, Eldar, Tau or Necron list and have a good laugh about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 09:14

The problem with chaos Space Marines are the chaos Space Marines. If you run them dirt cheap, they aren't that bad. But in that case they are only special weapon delivery systems. Everything else is a point sink. I had success with 3 5 dudes squads with a flamer and combi weapon. But that's not exactly what I think about chaos Marines. Where are my iron Warriors veterans?

I'd take dark Eldar Warriors over chaos Marines because of the Splinter Rifle. Toughness 6 bike? I don't care.

Tau? I don't let you get into Combat. And if you do get into Combat there isn't enough left to make any difference. Strength 5 weaponry can crush your rhino.

Loyal Space Marines? Enough said

Cult troops? Sorry, I built the army when it was still possible to play Iron Warriors. The only way to do that now is a warp Smith and cheap troops. I thought I played an elite army...

Imperial guard. I have to get into Combat first and even then they will kick my ass because too many dudes died. Only way to deal with them is small Marines squads with flamers.

When they don't run away.


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PostSubject: Re: Incubi hiearch HQ   Tue Jan 05 2016, 09:26

As this thread is getting quite a bit off topic and is also degenerating into personal insults I think it's time to step back and cool off so I'm locking this thread - Count Adhemar

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