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 Looking at DE in a different light

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kuni
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PostSubject: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 07:28

Just theory crafting here, has anyone tried this? What were your findings if so?

so usually I am running 4 stock kebab squads in venoms with double splinter canons - 105 points each.

I look at these squads as my anti infanty units on MEQ you are looking at 2 dead marines in 24 inches or 3 dead in 12 inches. Instead of running 4, drop it to 2 and put it 2 triple dissie ravagers. it will cost an extra 10 points total, but you are getting 4 dead MEQ in 36 inches per ravager, which gets better if the toughness of targets goes down, unlike poison. Has a chance at wounding light armour unlike poison. it will have a higher AV then a venom, but if it jinks it wont have guys inside still firing as normal. Flamers will be less of an issue.

Obviously it is also going to affect how the rest of your list will work, but taking it into a bubble as it is just theory crafting. Does it hold potential?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 07:38

What is a kebab squad?
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kuni
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 07:58

5 kebalite warriors
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 09:02

In what what is that looking at dark Eldar in another way?

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kuni
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 09:30

Well it is for me. I haven't seen many, if any lists incorporating dissie ravagers and most focus on multiple troops as a means of bringing more venoms. I did some quick theory crafting and based on that it seemed the triple dissie ravager performs better. On the battlefield obviously it is going to be different, which is why I thought I would post here. Nevermind, I'll run a few games of it and see for myself.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 10:39

I see what you mean now but if you take the Ravager for those, what will you do to bust tanks?
Granted: you could try to kill vehicles with scourges, with grotesques and flyers.

And don't forget that venoms kill Marines as good even if they are in cover while a Ravager needs to get them in the open.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 11:45

Something else to consider is that Venoms are more mobile. An empty Venom (or one where you don't care about firing the Kabalites) can move 12" and fire all its weapons at full BS. In contrast, a Ravager can only move 6" if it wants to fire all its weapons at full BS.

I'll also basically echo what CptMetal has said - in that I'd rather use my limited Ravagers for anti-tank. Especially since I can get long-range anti-infantry in my troop choices, but the same can't be said of anti-tank.
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kuni
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 12:35

totally agree with venoms being more mobile, however as they are pretty much the go to troop choice, then you will still have 2 for min troops, just not the excess. Very valid point in getting the marines in the open and not in cover. I guess with the ravagers you still have the option of moving 12" and getting off 6 str 5 ap3 at full bs and snap shoot the last 3 to get either better cover or a better shooting position.

For busting tanks I do find scourge (I run 2 units with 4 haywire and 1 squad with heat lance) to be much more reliable then 3 dark lances (maybe it is my poor rolling, but I don't find my ravagers reliable in taking out tanks... if they were twin linked it would be a different story). I also like to bring a squad of blasterborn, a couple dark lance razorwings, plus 6 reavers with cluster caltrops so I'm not overly worried about tanks.

I'm just waiting for my dark artisan and some grots to show up before I can trial it. I'll update this again and see if it does have any merits or not.

Thanks for the replies guys

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 12:42

@kuni wrote:

For busting tanks I do find scourge (I run 2 units with 4 haywire and 1 squad with heat lance) to be much more reliable then 3 dark lances (maybe it is my poor rolling, but I don't find my ravagers reliable in taking out tanks...

Honestly, I don't find either reliable - but in my experience those Scourges only get to shoot once.
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kuni
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 13:19

I love my scourge. Shredder what are you using for anti tank then? I tend to come up against quite a few imperial knights, some land raiders or lots of ork vehicles.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 13:30

I use a mix of Scourges, Ravagers, Heat-Lance and Caltrop Reavers, and assorted blasters.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Fri Jan 01 2016, 20:20

A forgeworld tantalus puts out like 12 disintegration shots from one vehicle. Consider lol

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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Sun Jan 03 2016, 04:47

@kuni wrote:
Well it is for me.  I haven't seen many, if any lists incorporating dissie ravagers and most focus on multiple troops as a means of bringing more venoms.  I did some quick theory crafting and based on that it seemed the triple dissie ravager performs better.  On the battlefield obviously it is going to be different, which is why I thought I would post here.  Nevermind, I'll run a few games of it and see for myself.

I always run dissies on ravagers since the new dex dropped.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Sun Jan 03 2016, 08:17

Why? To what results? I'm curious.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Sun Jan 03 2016, 10:38

Ive thought about dissie ravagers making a comeback since the new Tau dex came around. They are very good dealing with crisis suits, but consider the following:

3 dissie ravagers are 330p assuming you dont equip them with night shields. for that point cost you can take 5 empty venoms and have 5p to spare. What is better, 27 S5 AP2 at max 42" in 3 vehicles or 60 S1 AP5 Poisoned 4+ at 48" in 5?

Answer is depends at what you're firing at, of course. But in my experience more often than not you will get more bang for your buck with 5 venoms than 3 ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Mon Jan 04 2016, 12:57

Dissie Ravagers are boss.

Comparing it to a dark lance Ravager?
Can't ID isolated characters, and can't kill huge tanks. Its cheaper, and more reliable against light aircraft, as if/when it does shoot at them we're getting 9 chances to hit them instead of 3. Oddly, a lot of the time I find them better at opening up Chimera's and Rhinos than their Dark Lance Equivalents.

Comparing it to a Venom?
No passengers, and a little less mobile. Much tougher; 3 hull points, and armour 11 helps against small arms fire. It actually has a function against light vehicles, where mass poison can't contribute. With the advent of things like the Riptide, or even worse, GMC, the AP2 is huge. Against those, we're still looking for 6's, just like the venom, but we negate their 2+ save this way.

As long as your Dissie Ravager(s) is alive, it WILL screw with your opponents best infantry, regardless of their armour save. Its all we have to keep TEQ honest against us. This is more crucial since hardly any of our melee weapons can penetrate 2+ safely.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking at DE in a different light   Mon Jan 04 2016, 19:30

Well, when i read your post first thing came to my mind was - Realspace Raiders Detachment. You got to draw antitank from somewhere, and that surely has to be Fast Atack. With 2 troops you dont have to bank on Obj Secured too, since 2 units is not enough to use that rule to the maximum.

Maybe thats the way - going for tasty stuff, instead of load of splinter fire.

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